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Post Mongol Iran 6 Dirham.

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Pillar of the Community
3772 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2014  9:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Medieval to your friends list

Quote:
I see that there are six Kalimas


Plus the Shiite versions which differ again a little but yes, the Shahada which is the shortest version is the one most frequently encountered, especially since it is more fitting for smaller coins.


Quote:
the script in that section looks pretty different... difference of style?


A short overview -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calligraphy

While often displaying beautiful (personal opinion) calligraphy, reading/deciphering islamic coins can be a pain - specially when they are overstruck/double struck.


And "go go go" to 'Ancientnoob' and 'echizento'

Postscript to:

does that mean I still will have to pour through the lettering


While the general type is confirmed, you will still have to verify the mint-name - since you have Mitchiner, it shouldn't be a problem.
Edited by Medieval
10/22/2014 9:49 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
5155 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2014  9:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ancientnoob to your friends list
Your coin is the same coin different dies of the one pictured on CNG.

There is a strange difference...your coin is sharply struck in different areas where the CNG example is flat, and vice versa and your orientation is correct, with that being said

half way down on the obverse there is a small difference...


Post-Mongol-Iran-6-Dirham.


The double "X" marks donot appear on their coin, but it also appears that the photo has been edited to remove it, look close. hum weird. Any other opinions on the photo?

Valued Member
United Kingdom
435 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2014  9:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Valecrucis to your friends list
Thanks Medieval. Just want to say that, acknowledging that I am new to this group, I am genuinely happy to have found it. There are some decent and knowledgeable people here, so please know that I am very grateful to you all.

I eagerly await the further replies in answer to Medieval's call!

And yes, Ancientnoob...I see what you mean about the two X's. Odd. Is it that the photo has been altered or maybe that faint appearance is on the coin....a clogged die?
Edited by Valecrucis
10/22/2014 9:51 pm
Pillar of the Community
3772 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2014  9:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Medieval to your friends list

Quote:
Your coin is the same coin different dies of the one pictured on CNG.


Definitely different dies, there are various other small differences as well, just look at the legend around the rim.
No reason to worry in my opinion, just a different die cutter at work - those little xxs as you call them are purely ornamental, they are not part of the inscription.
Valued Member
United Kingdom
435 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2014  10:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Valecrucis to your friends list
Pillar of the Community
United States
5155 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2014  10:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ancientnoob to your friends list
Wow. Thats a cool coin. Medieval its a pleasure having you aboard you bring a variety of skills, knowledge and experience to the discussion.
Pillar of the Community
3772 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2014  10:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Medieval to your friends list
Thanks 'Ancientnoob' for the compliment from someone so knowledgeable himself.
Due to family reasons I had to put my numismatic interests on the backburner for the last few years, starting to reboot my brain.
But I am more of a generalist, to use the words of Goethe's Faust "I don't know much but I am aware of many things".
Valued Member
United Kingdom
435 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2014  10:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Valecrucis to your friends list
Great quote that. Something to 'borrow' at the right moment.
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 10/22/2014  10:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Medieval to your friends list
Sorry to derail your topic, but have to comment on:


Quote:
Great quote that. Something to 'borrow' at the right moment.


It is in my opinion one of the greatest quotes regarding knowledge acquisition and contrast well with the attitude of Faust's assistant Wagner who stated "I know quite a lot but I do want to know everything".
While I prefer other writers to Goethe, he has written some good stuff.

But to go back on topic, hope you find your coin in Mitchiner and can verify the mint and date (mint could be below the Kalima within the rose-shape centre, otherwise with the date in the rim legend on the other side.
(There are some differences to the CNG coin, not sure if it is just a differently cut die or different information.)

Valued Member
United Kingdom
435 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2014  10:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Valecrucis to your friends list
Thanks for your good wishes Medieval. If I find a definitive answer (when?) I will mention it here.

I have no problem with the topic being switched from my coin to something a little more philosophical. I have to relieve you of my participation for the night now though...it is late here in Wales.

No doubt that quote has a specific context as well as a stand alone philosophical point to make, but unfortunately I haven't read Faust, so I am not aware of it. As a stand alone quote, it is the type that provokes all sorts of different thoughts depending on personal perspective....a bit like any work of art. For me it makes me think of the blindness which can plague even the most knowledgeable when the world is viewed via a rigid or partial lense. Knowledge doesn't guarantee awareness, nor is it even strictly necessary and in the 'real world' clear awareness trumps knowledge and is a far rarer commodity. I think Goethe was 'aware' of the direction of society towards one which was overflowing with knowledge yet starved of wisdom. But I make no claim to knowing all that he intended with that statement...I just offer the awareness it triggered at this moment in time.

On that note...I must say goodnight to you all.
Edited by Valecrucis
10/22/2014 11:18 pm
Valued Member
United Kingdom
435 Posts
 Posted 11/02/2014  7:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Valecrucis to your friends list
I have a new Ilkhanid coin (well I haven't received it yet), so I thought I would bring alive this old thread to share it.

Bit of a bargain, I hope, at £12.50:

An Ilkhanid 2-dirham coin of Anushiravan from AH750. Album 2265 (eye-shape/square). 15mm, 1.18g. Scarce.


Post-Mongol-Iran-6-Dirham.
Pillar of the Community
3772 Posts
 Posted 11/02/2014  8:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Medieval to your friends list
Very nice and well centered coin.
But also a clear indication of the deterioration of the monetary standard.
To show a little more of it, here two coins of mine:


Post-Mongol-Iran-6-Dirham. Post-Mongol-Iran-6-Dirham.

AR Dirhem (~2.4g) of Arghun ibn Abaga (AH683-AH690) struck in Asfarain

At that time the Dirhem was as said ~2.4g, next in time comes your 6 Dirhem from AH714 with just under 2g per Dirhem, then comes a significant drop within a few decades to:

Post-Mongol-Iran-6-Dirham. Post-Mongol-Iran-6-Dirham.

AR Double Dirhem (~1.6g) Jahan Timur ibn Alafrang ibn Gaykhatu (AH739-AH741)

Which makes it ~0.8g per Dirhem and finally your second with ~0.6g per Dirhem.

The substantial drop can probably explained by the fact that the last two of those were minted in the 'Period of Rival Khans', ie when they were in warfare with each other.
Valued Member
United Kingdom
435 Posts
 Posted 11/02/2014  8:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Valecrucis to your friends list
Great info! It had struck me that the silver weight had dramatically reduced over a short time. As I said, I haven't received this coin yet, but it is going to feel pretty tiny in hand compared to the 6 dirham piece of a few decades before. For such a small coin it seems to have retained pretty good detail though.
Pillar of the Community
3772 Posts
 Posted 11/02/2014  8:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Medieval to your friends list

Quote:
For such a small coin it seems to have retained pretty good detail though.


The Arabic/Persian writing with thin lines lends itself to quite long inscriptions on smaller coins, you find the same on other coins from the Persian region of the following reigns of the Timurids and Sefavids. Yours is nicely centered, most of my smaller coins of the region are as the above example not so nicely struck.
Valued Member
United Kingdom
435 Posts
 Posted 11/02/2014  8:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Valecrucis to your friends list
Well it makes me happy that I have found a nice example. I am very grateful to you for sharing your knowledge Medieval. It is a real privilege to be able receive what amounts to an education in support of my interest in these coins, from one as knowledgeable as yourself.

Thank you!
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