Ebay Questionable Crowns

Interesting group - mostly fakes with a few common genuine ones.

My advice to anyone interested in avoiding fakes is to study these until you could spot one of the same type in total isolation being sold by a more believable seller.

The people behind these accounts read the forums for tips on how to better their craft, try not to give too much info :)

The sellers in my opinion are NOT really located in the USA. This has all the earmarks of the Chinese operation I tried to have stopped about a year ago.

They have actually improved the scheme a bit since then but the style is too similar.

Reasons for this - grammar shows non-English usages or extremely simple repeated terms (see feedback left). Names chosen have been improved and are no longer random letters and numbers. Coins are sold far under market price (greed is a driver) shill bidding is involved.

If ebay was still tracing PayPal receipts/payments I would be willing to bet all payments are going to one point. I would also bet that the PayPal accounts were set up without the bank account owner's knowledge.

If packages actually arrive with US postmarks it is because they use a front mailing location.

plonker I share your concern with these thieves operating with impunity on ebay. I see little chance of stopping this because most of the activity that occurs in China is completely legal under their laws. So rightfully so the Chinese can say it is not their problem to stop these guys.

The illegality occurs outside of China so the Chinese do not care. The US and Canada have concerns but they are not set up to be pro-active and can only respond to complaints from individual consumers. These complaints of individual fraud take the form of very "low interest" consumer complaints which inspire NO ACTION. The issue when talking to US authorities quickly becomes "How do you PROVE the coin is a forgery without having it in hand." These are not coin guys (a lot of bureaucrats) so they tend to oppose pro-active work because they don't know a coin from a hole in the ground and they do not want the extra work.

The potential issue of bank fraud - ends up being of no interest either to authorities since the "borrowing" of bank account information has no dollar value. What is stolen is the identity information used to set up a bogus PayPal account. The money added to PayPal stays there until it is sent back home (China). No actual money is removed or deposited to the bank account so there is no "crime" to be prosecuted. The appropriate fees are paid to PayPal so they are not hurt.

The only potential loser in this scenario is ebay if they are forced to pay claims out of their own pocket (which could happen if the PayPal account is terminated and the seller disappears.) The investigation of the fraud by ebay will end up with the bank account and will become a fight between the owner of the account and ebay. The claim by ebay initially is a charge to the bank account.

Until ebay starts to spend SEVERAL MILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR on fraud losses that they can not recover from innocent parties - you can bet the farm that nothing at all will be done. Even then the first thing the accountants at ebay will look for is the loss amount versus the profits the fraud generates for ebay and PayPal.

Our committee demonstrated that enforcement efforts against fraud resulted in a noticeable down tick in profit and because of that NO ACTION is allowed if it reduces the bottom line.

One of the Chinese shipping locations that I traced down was in San Diego. It was a small office in a residential type area with a parking lot behind the building for 7 employee cars. Container shipments were received there for coins, jewelry, jade etc. All items were shipped there from Beijing and re-shipped to winning bidders from that one location. Many seemed to be pre-packaged because the cardboard used was typical of China not the US. We tried unsuccessfully to have it raided by US Customs before we were terminated by ebay. In that case I also had the actual physical packages in my possession from several different buyers who purchased from several different "US" sellers. All the packages were packed identically with the same materials and they had different seller names but they all originated from the same physical San Diego address.

There are, in addition to these big operations, some US citizens who are crooks that buy directly from China for re-sale on ebay. They are numerous but tend not to share pictures and their packages, working etc is variable.

The group I was working on used the identical pictures with numerous ebay identities and never shipped the coins actually in the pictures. They shipped different coins made from the same molds so that larger marks always matched but toning was slightly different.

The group that started this thread is operating in the same way as the one I tried to stop.

Another one. Ill post here incase some one find this useful.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/ricoliv_978...047675.l2562

plonker The last seller claims to be located in Texas but his English wording says differently.

jdmern You ask a good question.

The current ebay policy is a legal one that will not be revised until considerable outside pressure is brought to bear. Remember the effort just terminated was in place with the support of both ebay and the ANA for over 7 years and the problem of fraud was not eliminated.

Asking ebay to police listings is likely the wrong way to go. The volunteer method that was employed was only partially effective because there simply are not enough people will to work for nothing to do this job right. All auctions would have to be screened and approved before they are allowed to be posted. The costs of this effort by paid staff could be very steep and the buyer ends up paying for it in the long run.

Petitioning ebay to make it easier to warn buyers that a coin might be a fake is likely an easier route. Sellers might not like it but comments by certain approved expert commentators would be worth a try. Most people simply do not know they are buying fakes until it is too late.

The TPGs are one solution if they can do a better job of eliminating fakes. I know they are trying but even in their case profit and the need to produce more at less cost is a driving force.

In the long run, I think that some new collectors will be turned off to the hobby others will learn how to authenticate for themselves. The second alternative is by far the better way to go.