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 Replies: 25 / Views: 6,256 |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2624 Posts |
Ridiculous considering the purchasing power of a £50 is a fraction of what it was... in 1981 if would probably fill your tank 10 times and now you could not fill the average car with one.
I really dont know what it would solve to reduce this denomination...
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Bedrock of the Community
United Kingdom
17967 Posts |
I've seen very few £50 notes in circulation. In the 1980s I had a job where I needed quite large sums of cash for road tolls (mostly on French motorways) and my employers used to give me a float in £50 notes. Nowadays I help out my brother at a stall selling model railroads two or three times a year, and almost everyone pays in cash, often quite large sums, but we never get more than one or two £50 notes although we probably handle £20,000 - £30,000 in cash over each weekend.
I can solve the mystery of one of the missing Houblon notes - I saved a nice crisp Merlyn Lowther one with an M01 prefix for my collection! So that still leaves 52,999,999 not accounted for!
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Valued Member
United States
156 Posts |
Yes, this notion is being championed by Larry Summers, former president of Harvard University who was forced to resign because he managed to insult just about everyone with his tactless approach, former presidential economic adviser who called the real market on "solid ground" less than six months before the whole the thing imploded and took the global economy with it. Now in a desperate bid to remain relevant, he is trying to insure that any transaction over $10k (US) must be done by wire, thereby generating even more fees for banks (the idea of going after criminals is, I believe, a red herring). It amazes me that anyone is still listening to him on any subject whatsoever.
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Valued Member
 United States
411 Posts |
NumisRob In the 1980s I had a job where I needed quite large sums of cash for road tolls (mostly on French motorways)... Circulation of the £50 banknote in the 1980's never went above 45 million. It would be very rare to see one. Even today with circulation at 263 million, with a population of 65 million (4 notes per person) I would think they would be unusual. £50 notes in circulation in millions of banknotes
Feb 28, 1982 5.48 Feb 28, 1995 57.04 Feb 29, 2012 197.98
Feb 28, 1983 12.66 Feb 29, 1996 62.07 Feb 28, 2013 206.46
Feb 29, 1984 18.18 Feb 28, 1997 65.47 Feb 28, 2014 220.50
Feb 28, 1985 21.78 Feb 28, 1998 72.72 Feb 28, 2015 235.76
Feb 28, 1986 24.66 Feb 28, 1999 79.24 Feb 29, 2016 263.14
Feb 28, 1987 29.50 Feb 29, 2000 83.90
Feb 29, 1988 35.10 Feb 28, 2001 93.14
Feb 28, 1989 41.08 Feb 28, 2002 104.06
Feb 28, 1990 45.84 Feb 28, 2003 108.94
Feb 28, 1991 47.50 Feb 29, 2004 114.84
Feb 29, 1992 50.30 Feb 28, 2005 121.64
Feb 28, 1993 54.64 Feb 28, 2006 130.20
Feb 28, 1994 57.68 Feb 28, 2007 134.10
Feb 29, 2008 150.52
Feb 28, 2009 173.82
Feb 28, 2010 184.96
Feb 28, 2011 198.80
Mar 20, 1981: introduction of Sir Christopher Wren note Apr 20, 1994 - Sep 20, 1996: transition to Sir John Houblon Nov 2, 2011 - Apr 30, 2014: transition to Watt & Boulton Afab67 (the idea of going after criminals is, I believe, a red herring)There was an comprehensive article by a Harvard professor written in 1976 when Nixon's removal of the USA from the gold standard allowed the Fed to print a rash of $100 banknotes. The total number in circulation by 1976 reached 210 million (about the population of the USA at the time). This Harvard professor called for the removal of the $100 banknote as a means of hindering organized crime for essentially the same reasons that Larry Summers is proposing today. Today, the USA is rapidly approaching 11 billion c-notes in circulation. Here is the final paragraph from the 1976 article on eliminating the $100 banknote. Quote:
This nation spends about $15 billion a year on police, prisons, and courts. We know from bitter experience that there is no simple relation between more dollars and less crime. Most of this $15 billion, by far, is spent on attempts to reduce street crime. Comparatively little attention is paid to white-collar crime, whose economic effects, at least, are far more serious. Currency reform would be a simple, inexpensive way to identify white-collar criminals, and to make their continued operation more difficult.
Calling in the Big Bills by James Henry-The Washington Monthly, May 1976, pp. 26-33
A monetary detective finds a painless way to catch the tax evaders and cripple organized crime
James Henry is a Danforth Fellow in economics and law at Harvard University. But if the UK had listened to the same advice in 1976 they never would have put the £50 banknote into circulation. As a final note, I want to point out that the Mexican government introduced a 1000 peso banknote ( = £40 ) over 11 years ago, and today the 500 peso banknote still outnumbers to 1000 peso banknotes by a factor of 20X. The £20 banknote outnumbers the £50 banknotes by a factor of only 7.8X . But the Bank of England has not announced a date to convert the £50 to polymer, while they have announced a time frame for £5 ,£10, and £20 so perhaps they intend to remove it after all.
Edited by PacoMartin
04/07/2016 11:30 pm
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Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
float
British English A sum of money used for change at the beginning of a period of trading in a shop or stall etc., or for minor expenditures.
That's not a term that is normally used in AmE except as part of the idiom "float a loan".
But number of £20 banknotes/number of £50 has remained between 7.8 and 8.9 since 2004 so they are not super rare. In the USA the ratio of $20s to $50s is about 5.4 , but there are actually more $100 bills in circulation than $20s. Still the majority of people never or rarely handle a $100 bill.
Is there anyone on this forum that agrees that the £50 banknote should be eliminated?
Edited by PacoMartin
04/07/2016 11:26 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Germany
992 Posts |
Quote:
Is there anyone on this forum that agrees that the £50 banknote should be eliminated? Someone will ultimately probably agree. It won't be me though.  If the £50 note is indeed rarely seen in circulation in the UK it can only mean it's used to store value. Considering the recent political uncertainy in the UK -- first the referendum in Scotland (scottish independece), now the upcoming vote on leaving the EU -- it's now wonder that people get a nervous. The UK leaving the EU would have huge implications and ramifications especially for the UK and its citizen. By the way, there has surfaced a credible report that getting rid of (discontinuing/abolishing) the €500 banknote will cost at least 500 million Euros. The costs stem from destroying the €500 notes and especially by producing new and much more €100 and €200 notes. Edited by redlock
04/08/2016 05:13 am
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Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Just checking to see if there are any ordinary people that buy into these ideas.
As of end of February 2016 the Bank of England was circulating 263.14 million £50 banknotes. Production statistics show that 440 million were printed.
2010/11 zero
2011/12 278 million
2012/13 zero
2013/14 90 million
2014/15 72 million
2015/16 zero
It seems to me there may be some advantage to limiting production in some way. I felt that BEP should limit the $100 in circulation to a trillion dollars worth, and only circulate a new note for each old note destroyed (give or take a percentage to make job practical). Since there are 7 $50 banknotes to every $100, the difference could be partially made up by printing $50s. If the world knows there is a limit, then there will be less political problems.
Norway stopped producing new 1000NOK banknotes in 2005, and has been slowly working through it's supply. Since the £50 is more valuable as a store of value, the existing notes will last longer.
How about the idea of stopping production of new £50 banknotes? Just let them fade away over the next thirty years.
Edited by PacoMartin
04/27/2016 12:15 am
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
I just bought a car for $22,000 in cash, saved $3,000 becuse I paid in cash.
Went to the bank 3 days earlier so that enough $100 notes could be made available. The bank reported the withdrawal under the
Cash Transactions Reports Law,
that is designed to control drug dealers. The receiver of the $22,000 in cash was required to report the receipt of the cash under the this Law as well.
A bit of an annoyance that I had to pay in $100 notes; I would have much rather paid in $500 or $1,000 notes. The $100 notes proved to be a real pain in the 'proverbial', when it came to counting them. Had to count out and check count 220 x $100 notes. What a pain!
2 x $10,000 notes, and 2 x $1,000 notes would have made the payment in cash much simpler.
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2624 Posts |
The £50 might be rarely seen in shops (you don't purchase a loaf of bread with one, in fact Greggs the high street bakers won't take them) but in certain circles they are seen all the time.
I work in the gaming sector... organising and dealing poker games. I won't say that £50 notes are the main means of transaction but they certainly account for a large percentage. Cash points do not pay out £50 notes so many people never see them but withdrawals from savings (when you go inside the bank) and withdrawals from casino's are often in £50's. Since many of the people who play poker also visit casino's we see lots of them.
I think twice before breaking into one, so maybe they are used as a store of wealth but I can't think that there is any crime that would be hindered by having money in £20 notes instead of £50 notes. I am not a drug dealer but I would wager that the majority of street transactions for drugs are done in used £10's and £20's by simple virtue that £50's are not paid out by cash machines.
That's another thing to mention too, for as long as I can remember the withdrawal limits at cash machines have been the same... while the value of the money has plummeted. Not only does £50 not go far anymore but they don't want you to be able to withdraw enough money to buy anything substantial.
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Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Quote:
I just bought a car for $22,000 in cash, saved $3,000 becuse I paid in cash. Buying and selling cars for cash is an oft cited example of a perfectly legal transaction that can often be done at a discount using high denomination notes. Gamblers prefer high denomination notes everywhere. Although you had to fill out a form, you are OK with that. Let's look at the same transaction done with Australian dollar vs British Pound, Swedish Crown, Euro, or the Swiss Franc. 50 GBP = 96 AUD 1000 SEK= 163 AUD 500 EUR = 746 AUD 1000 CHF= 1356 AUD British Pound is virtually the same as Australian $. Sweden looks like an improvement, but since the government has only circulated 1.652 million of the new banknotes since last October for a population of 9.7 million, the task of getting that many notes for yourself for one transaction is almost impossible. You would have to do the transaction in 500SEK banknotes ~ 82 AUD which would require more than 220 notes. The Swiss Franc would reduce your transaction to under 15 banknotes, and the Euro would take it down to about 32 banknotes. Quote:
2 x $10,000 notes, and 2 x $1,000 notes would have made the payment in cash much simpler.
In 1969 the USA government swore to destroy all the $500 banknotes in their possession and not print any more. By policy (unlike UK and Sweden), USA and Canada do not declare old banknotes invalid, they just destroy all the ones in their possession and eventually the remaining notes become collectors items. Some countries don't like to keep old banknotes as liabilities and their account balance. So while there is a slight chance of reintroduction of the $500 banknote in the USA, there is very little chance of reintroducing any higher denominations. I doubt that Australia would be any different. --------------------- I am convinced that the giant Casino companies are going to invent a casino chip with an RFID chip embedded that is worth 500 Euros that is acceptable at casinos around the world. It will be challenged by governments, of course, but I think that the casino companies will find a way to win the legal argument. I say Euros instead of USD only because there are over 200 million people that already use a currency that is pegged to the Euro. There are only a few million people that use a currency pegged to USD. Also since there is over 600 million 500 Euro banknotes circulating, I don't think another 100 million or so casino chips will matter that much. It will be easier to win the court case. But the casinos will have a "casino currency" in place in case the ECB ever decides to do away with the 500 Euro banknote. As gamblers will use this chip as a store of value, casinos will benefit from the chips that are circulating as a kind of cash outside of casinos. Casinos will simply be the place where you convert back into national currency (but by gambling first). Edited by PacoMartin
04/27/2016 5:10 pm
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Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
1,251,200,000 FY 1996
0,649,600,000 FY 1997
0,764,800,000 FY 1998
1,542,400,000 FY 1999
0 FY 2000
0,201,600,000 FY 2001
0,604,800,000 FY 2002
0,854,400,000 FY 2003
0,515,200,000 FY 2004
0,668,800,000 FY 2005
0,950,400,000 FY 2006
1,088,000,000 FY 2007
1,209,600,000 FY 2008
1,785,600,000 FY 2009
1,907,200,000 FY 2010
0,723,200,000 FY 2011
0,003,027,200 FY 2012
4,428,800,000 FY 2013
0,640,000,000 FY 2014
1,078,400,000 FY 2015
20,867,027,200
The USA says they have produced just over 20 billion $100 notes in the 20 years since the big headed Benjamin came out. Roughly 11 billion are currently circulating. The Japanese were producing 1 billion 10,000JPY banknotes per year, but they are increasing to 1.2 billion to handle the rush to cash with 0% central bank interest rates. 2010/11 zero 2011/12 278 million 2012/13 zero 2013/14 90 million 2014/15 72 million 2015/16 zero The production of 440 million 50GBP banknotes over a six year period, and 263 million in circulation looks pretty small by comparison (even taking population size into consideration). Edited by PacoMartin
04/27/2016 6:44 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
I seriously doubt that ANY country in the World would have the intention ot introducing, or re introducing, very high denomination notes in the long distance forseeable future.
Nevertheless, there is ample evidence that almost all countries are continuing to introduce increasingly higher denomiation notes due to inflation, as decades of years roll by.
Australia is a typical example:
Australia converted to a decimal currency in 1966, and the $20 was the highest denomination note at that time.
Due to infation, the $50 note was introduced in 1973, and the $100 note was introduced in 1984.
I have no doubt at all, that a $200 denomination note will be introduced within the next 10 years.
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Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
The £50 and the AUD$100 started circulating around the same time. But Australia is circulating more notes for a much smaller population than UK. £50 ~ AUD$96
£50 notes in circulation in millions of banknotes
Feb 28, 2011 198.80
Feb 29, 2012 197.98
Feb 28, 2013 206.46
Feb 28, 2014 220.50
Feb 28, 2015 235.76
Feb 29, 2016 263.14
AUD$100 notes in circulation in millions of banknotes
Dec 31, 2010 214.37
Dec 31, 2011 229.02
Dec 31, 2012 245.83
Dec 31, 2013 268.36
Dec 31, 2014 292.04
Jun 31, 2015 300.00
Quote:
I have no doubt at all, that a $200 denomination note will be introduced within the next 10 years. 1000 SEK ~ 163 AUD 500 SEK ~ 82 AUD Which is why the Swedish experiment is interesting. The Swedish 1000SEK banknote never got much higher than circulation than 11 per capita in 2001 whereas the Australian $100 banknote is at about 13 per capita today. But Sweden has eliminated all but a token number of 1000SEK banknotes, and has reduced the 500SEK banknote to only about 9 per capita. From the looks of it, they hope to reduce even further. If they take this to the extreme conclusion that only the 200SEK = $32.54 AUD is in wide circulation than cash will almost have lost it's "store of value" function in Sweden. While your comment about inflation seems natural, countries may follow the Swedish example and try to remove high value notes. Then there always is the question of currency unions. Currency unions will probably be easier if there are only small denomination banknotes circulating. If BREXIT happens, then Sweden may follow in leaving the EU. It is possible that Sweden may be looking for a currency union. Norway is an obvious example and the Norwegian crown and the Swedish Crown are less than 1% apart, and at one time they were one country. But since both countries are small there is very little to be gained from a currency union. But UK may be looking at currency unions with Canada and Australia (and possibly Sweden and Norway). Canadian dollar and Australian dollar are about 4.5% apart, and they have similar economies. The Australian dollar and the British Pound are also about 4.5% apart if you double the Australian dollar. Edited by PacoMartin
04/28/2016 12:34 am
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2624 Posts |
Even if the powers that be are interested in a currency union (for Britain) I doubt that the British public would except one.
We rejected the idea of the Euro whole-heartedly even if we were manipulated into the farce that is the EU political union... We are the 5th largest economy and can stand on our own two feet, the idea that we should get shackled to a currency that we don't have control over seems a long shot.
There is more chance on the USA adopting a joint currency with Mexico and Canada...and I don't know if there is any chance of that at all (other than wild speculation)
The UK is far less interested with currency unions than trade deals... if we get out of the EU we will be able to trade more freely with the rest of the world without having our hands tied by the bureaucrats in Brussels. As Farage quite rightly points out - there are no other cases other than Europe where free trade means you have to except free movement of peoples. The Germans will still want to sell us cars even if we don't except every Tom, Dick and Harry who wants to come here completely unvetted.
I don't understand where you would get the impression that Britain would have any interest in a currency union if we left the EU?
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Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Quote:
We rejected the idea of the Euro whole-heartedly even if we were manipulated into the farce that is the EU political union... We are the 5th largest economy and can stand on our own two feet, the idea that we should get shackled to a currency that we don't have control over seems a long shot.
I am not suggesting that UK be shackled to a currency that they have no control over. The UK would be the largest economy in a "northern alliance" currency union. Smaller currencies are always subject to currency speculators like George Soros. Sweden has relentless pressure by speculators to try and make the currency go up in value. GDP (PPP) China $19,392,357 European Union $19,205,364 United States $17,947,000 Japan $4,830,065 United Kingdom $2,679,325 Canada $1,631,943 Australia $1,138,085 Sweden $473,413 Norway $356,209 |
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Posted 04/07/2016 1:14 pm
