Ebay Numismatic Seller Registration Board?

Yeah, Rick, it's legit alright, but it's still an eBay-owned forum and I question how effective it could or will be under ebay's watchful eyes (if ebay spent just a fraction of the time policing its coin auctions as it does policing its forums, ebay would be a lot safer shopping place). It would be nice if the ENSRB got to the point where every coin seller would have to be registered, but with 10K? 50K? 100K coin sellers on ebay, only the honest ones would seek registration. Those who are ethically challenged would just ignore it as they have ignored ebay's own Terms of Service, the ANA's Code of Ethics, and every other set of rules and laws already on the book.

I still haven't figured out who "dykstrac" might be. If s/he is the one sending out all those invitations, it's been effective: almost 40 newbies since last evening.

Fred

Like errorfinder, I joined the group by invitation through my affiliation with the coin forgery group. Obviously, the group is new and small, and I'm a little leery of the language in some of the dealer ethics code, but I believe the intent of the group is sound. Language may be negotiated, and they seem willing to do that.

There is strength in numbers. It is possible that this group, correctly managed, could become a force for good in the ebay selling community. As of right now, nobody else is mounting such a coherent effort, and I intend to throw in with them.

The Group leader of this new ebay board is a controversial member of a particular yahoo Coin Forgery Discussion List and who has lost all credibility by experienced ancient numismatists by deeming ancient coins fake when they are actually not: he claims to see many fake coins in the offerings of major firms.

I wouldn't join this group.

Regards,

Peter

greekandroman and gettinIT, I know next to nothing about ancient coins except they're a lot older than all coins in which I deal which makes them slightly older than I am. I checked out his feedback in ToolHaus and I agree that it is less than stellar although he's had only one mutually withdrawn so far this year, no negs/neutrals and his worst feedback is almost two years old or older. I suppose the best that might be said of his claims that real coins are fakes is that he didn't make the reverse claim.

I'll keep an eye on the situation and thanks for the heads up. So far, he's been pretty straight on ENRB.

Fred

Fred and Dave, please allow me the chance to explain my position regarding my opinion above.

Just as it was stated in a previous post, unless the group is not associated with ebay in any manner, then people might still consider it as "ineffective until and unless the psychology of many (most?) coin buyers changes." Fred was right in the point that nothing will change on ebay until the buyers change their practices. Unfortunately, this will not happen unless sellers take responsibility for their actions. (I.E...the Asian sellers that sell with the INTENT to defraud...AND the buyers that buy with the INTENT to file false claims) I will not take sides as to who is in the wrong without knowing the facts of each individual and the events surrounding such. That is why it would be most difficult to create an organization as such. It's like feeling like a mouse running in a circle. The problems on ebay are an example of how this world has become.

1. Nothing will change unless change is wanted, desired, and sought.
2. Problems can occur ANYTIME money is involved (and I'm not just speaking of collecting said money.)
3. Unless ebay can be PERFECTED...well, no since in finishing that statement.

I'm sure that MOST sellers have honest intentions. Maybe they were simply mis-informed at one time or another and that opinion is stuck in their head as being right and accurate...who knows. All I'm stating is that, "YES! It's a good idea to have a group of trained members, who have an interest in the hobby, and who have the ability to perform the duties required. But until a solid establishment has been created...the practice of mis-leading auctions will continue."

Some discussion on the group leader: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/bo...opic=22213.0.

The choice is yours on whether to join or not of course, but seeing how he runs his yahoo groups, I won't be joining any time soon.

--Peter

P.S. Why not start an equivalent "Coin Community" thread for a Numismatic Seller Registration Board? e.g. sellers with certain number of posts will have their name entered and are subject to removal if do not meet criteria or behave in a manner not accepted by other members.

Peter and CiScO et al--

You both have valid points regarding Alan and the concept of the ENRB, but I prefer to look at both issues from a different viewpoint. First, no argument that Alan is a controversial figure although I have seen nothing to indicate that he is dishonest or unethical; however, even though he is the ENRB founder, he has made it clear he does not want to lead the group and is actively pursuing persons to step forward and replace him in a leadership role (don't look at me; I'm still on a trial run with the group and just don't have the time due to other irons in the fire. Also, by the time ebay's pages load, I have lost my train of thought or interest). An observation: people who start and run activist groups are almost always going to be loaded with personality with positive, obnoxious, strong, and negative characteristics (such as arrogance which I personally cannot stand) and will ruffle feathers with those who find overbearing personalities more than they are willing to take. For this reason, I can overlook shortcomings in most people if they have good intentions, are willing to work hard toward a goal, are honest and open, are talented and patient enough to overcome hurdles, and are willing to follow through with a task. The jury may still be out on Alan Van Arsdale, but I think his concept for ENRB is well-conceived and deserves a chance.

Second, I also question the long-term effectiveness of such a group, especially since its host is ebay itself thus bringing into question the ENRB's credibility. There is no doubt that a fundamental part of the problem is ebay itself and its reluctance to actively pursue the worst of the fraudsters such as (for coins) estatedoctor (husband and wife) who deserve serious jail time. However, while I do not tilt at windmills, I think the notion of what amounts to a certification board for common ebay coin sellers has at least an iota of a chance to succeed and I am willing to invest a measured amount of time to give it this chance, especially during its initial stages. I am unable and unwilling to see a good idea wither away because persons write it off at its onset without at least tacitly supporting it. Few of us are higher level professional dealers/sellers who work at the levels of millions of dollars per month or year; we simply cannot afford the cost to become ANA- or PNG-certified dealers. The ENRB provides the chance for the average or small-time dealer to become certified as long as he/she prescribes and adheres to a stated code of ethics without incurring major costs. Further, although ebay has not as yet interfered with the ENRB group, the above-mentioned Yahoo Group was partly established to counterbalance any potential ebay influence might attempt on ENRB.

Third, there will always be a certain number of ethically-challenged sellers and a multitude of ignorant IQ-challenged buyers to be defrauded by these sellers. This is true in all walks of life and is not restricted to coins. Nothing anyone can do to change human nature, but certain controls can be placed at the supplier level, in this instance ebay coin sellers to at least minimize their illicit activities. I know of no other organization which has attempted seller registration at ebay levels (I could be wrong on this). (BTW, COINAF is an enforcement and action organization; we do not contemplate seller registration at this time.)

Fourth, the notion that CCF create its own version of an ENRB is beyond the scope and function of CCF as it was envisioned and created by Susan and Bobby. We are a discussion group consisting of a very wide variety and scale of interests in coins ranging from fulltime dealers to persons who found a couple interesting coins in their change. To attempt and maintain such a venture as a function of CCF would require more time that most of us have. Also, CCF maintains a Sticky on "Recommended Sellers" and "Discourage Sellers" in the ebay Forum section which is probably as far as we want to go in this direction.

Last, as implied earlier, I am not going to defend Alan VanArsdale as a person; I don't know him and our paths have never before crossed. However, the ENRB concept seems worthy of defense at this time and I do not see how the man's personality has any bearing on the ENRB, a cause worthy of support which should be taken separately from its founder. The only way the ENRB is going to work is if a large percentage of coin sellers join the group and work at making it succeed.

Fred,

I wish you the best and thank you for the effort on behalf of all of us.