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 Replies: 20 / Views: 2,254 |
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Forum Mom
 United States
5877 Posts |
Connecticoin...and this is why I missed reading your posts. Very well-said.  |
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Valued Member
United States
458 Posts |
I once considered sending into NCS my 3 cleaned $20 saints so then they would be sent to NGC to see what they would do. (I expect they would of body bagged them again as cleaned even tho NCS submitted them). Since these coins were already submitted once to either NGC & PCGS, (at 1 time I was a member with both). Both of them return a total of 3 saints in body bags. These coins were what I would call high grade saints and is what got me to stop buying "unslabbed" saints on ebay. Also it is what started me studying how to detect a whizzed or cleaned gold/silver coins. This subject was broached in couple of threads in CW forum. When it was posted that once a coin has been cleaned, or especially whizzed, there is no way to reverse the process and or damage. At that point I went ahead and converted the coins into jewelry. (I could not with a clear concious dump these coins on a unsuspecting buyer). I acquired some nice bezels for them and sold them off. Except for the 1915S, that beauty I bezeled and bought a nice thick big gold chain and I kept it for meself  (If you buy coined jewelry you better expect they have been cleaned).  |
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Pillar of the Community
Belgium
2078 Posts |
Ok what do you call cleaned ?
Would you be able to detect an acetone dip on a goldcoin ?
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Forum Mom
United States
5877 Posts |
The general consensus is that acetone does not leave signs of cleaning on gold or silver and doesn't change the metal composition. If you let it air dry, you also get no wipe marks. You will find many different opinions on whether acetone dipping is cleaning or not. Since it does remove foreign matter from the coin, I personally consider it to be cleaned and I think that the dipping should be stated if the coin is for sale. I would also go into detail and explain how it was done and why, though. In my opinion, this method should only be used to remove harmful contaminents from a coin's surface and not as general maintenance on your coins.
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Valued Member
United States
421 Posts |
If you can't tell anything has been done to it, it is conserved. It you can tell something was done, it is cleaned. If it is ugly, it is tarnish. If it is pretty, it is toning. If it is a chaep coin, it is pitted or corroded. If it is an expensive coin, it is rough surfaces or has Shipwreck Effect. There's a lot of stuff like that in this hobby. Some of it is just marketing fluff but some of it is because there is a black on one side, white on the other, and a grey area in between in some cases. Most everyone would agree that removing PVC in a proper way is a good thing for a coin. Most everyone would agree that using a wire brush on a coin to shine it up or smooth it out is a bad thing for a coin. You would have a much harder time getting such a consensus on dipping for example. Edited by Stujoe
04/09/2005 11:59 am
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Pillar of the Community
Belgium
2078 Posts |
I get about one quarter of my proofs or old goldcoins with a fresh fingerprint on it Put on when they do the scanning or photographing So I have no choice but to use acetone Actually since I am a chemical engineer I poor the acetone over the coin whilst holding it ( I know all the dangers but since I did airbrushing I have a very powerfull extraction system ) So it is not even dipping I looked at the coins every which way afterwards and never detected a difference |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts |
Ageka,
As one who has veiwed many thousands of coins, all substances leave a mark. Even acetone. While it may not look cleaned, it shows signs of running. Use different lights when viewing the coin before and after using the acetone. LED lights will show the running of the liquid. If using acetone to remove something harmful, I say go for it. It is better to clean than to damage.
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New Member
United States
19 Posts |
I think that in many cases, "conservation" can be a good thing.
Sadly and disturbingly, however, I also think that conservation is being widely over-used and even abused, causing many perfectly fine/nice coins to be ruined (forever).
In my opinion, many of the "conserved" coins are either being graded higher than they deserve to be, or are being assigned grades, when they should be receiving "no-grades".
In a multitude of cases, unnatural looking "conserved" coins are being rewarded, rather than penalized in grade - I think that is backwards, not to mention wrong.
I know many other dealers who feel the same way, but for various reasons, some of them are hesitant or afraid to speak out publicly on this subject. That is their right, but I sure wish more of them would stick their necks out alongside mine.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts |
You are absolutely right coinguy. Most of the inner workings in this business is politics. Who not to upset and who's butt to kiss. Many topics are very taboo in a public format. No one wants to air the dirty laundry for fear of the repercussions. The ripple effect can be devastating to a dealer who crosses the line.
Most collectors and small dealers have no idea just how many things go on that never get mentioned.....
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Pillar of the Community
United States
980 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by national dealer
Ageka,
As one who has veiwed many thousands of coins, all substances leave a mark. Even acetone. While it may not look cleaned, it shows signs of running. Use different lights when viewing the coin before and after using the acetone. LED lights will show the running of the liquid. If using acetone to remove something harmful, I say go for it. It is better to clean than to damage.
Hi ND, What is your feeling about a distilled water rinse? I have some circ coins that just plain look dirty, as if someone left them on a dusty counter for 20 years. Thanks, Don |
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Pillar of the Community
Belgium
2078 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by national dealer
Ageka,
As one who has veiwed many thousands of coins, all substances leave a mark. Even acetone. While it may not look cleaned, it shows signs of running. Use different lights when viewing the coin before and after using the acetone. LED lights will show the running of the liquid. If using acetone to remove something harmful, I say go for it. It is better to clean than to damage.
I used to colormatch carpaint and interior car plastic for a time by wavelength measurement and computer matching For visual inspection I had hot light , cold light, daylight, black light and UV light What do you call LED ? Light Emitting Diode ? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts |
Yes. LED lights often show little details missed with Halogen lights, UV lights, or standard incandescent lights. This may sound like overkill here, but I have several light sources that I use when buying coins. Spotting the cleaning before it comes back body-bagged is well worth the time and effort.
Don,
While distilled water will not hurt the coin, it will also leave run lines. Now granted 90% of collectors will never know, and it may even pass by the graders most of the time, but anyone looking will see the tell tale marks.
Coins are not perfectly smooth. If you use the correct light and magnification you will see all sorts of little things on the surface of the coin. Running water, acetone, breathing on it will all leave little signs. Fingerprints are left on the surface immediately, but usually don't show up for some time. Now anyone who has taken the time to learn what to look for will see these little differences on the surface and pass on the coin.
I am not saying that no coin should be cleaned, because some need it. However, way too many state with fact that you cannot spot acetone or distilled water, and that folks just is not true.
Try a few experiments for yourself, don't take my word for it. Use a 10X loupe, use a few common pocket coins and dip them or run the following liquids over them. (acetone-tap water-bottled water-distilled water-olive oil. Then look at them with LED light, UV light, Incandescent lights, and Halogen lights. The proof will be there for all to see.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts |
I am not trying to knock what other people say about cleaning coins. Let me offer this. I see coins every day. I see more coins in a given week than most do in a year. I have made a living dealing in coins for almost 14 years. I take as much care in viewing my pocket change as I do looking at the ultra rare. For me, I find coins fascinating. The strike, the points of wear, the little details that most never see or realize.
I am simply trying to pass along a little of this experience to others. I don't expect anyone to take my personal experiences as the gospel truth, however, I would like to think that some will listen and make the attempt to learn the facts for themselves. Do the research, talk to others, try the experiments, learn the ins and outs for yourself. Collectors do not need to become experts, but they should have a basic understanding of hobby. This includes how to grade, authenticate, and spot the cleanings.
I hope that I can be of assistance in shortening the learning curve for some.
Edited by national dealer
04/11/2005 06:51 am
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Pillar of the Community
Belgium
2078 Posts |
Well never too old to learn I got several proofs which had ugly fingerprints on them one is the 1984 olympics attached I will look at it from al sides I have green, blue and red LED's any one better then another color ?  Edited by ageka
04/11/2005 09:48 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts |
I use a "white" led lighted magnifying glass. No. 9835SPL - 1-3/8" diameter, aspheric lens 10X magnification with LED illumination, especially for coin collectors. Unlimited bulb life. http://safepublications.com/Catalog...#illuminated pocket You have to get used to the blue tint given off on the silver coins, but LED reveals many flaws that are often missed using other light sources. |
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Posted 04/09/2005 08:39 am
