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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by zakgold
Or, if absolute maximization of income isn't the highest priority, then submit it to NGC.
Now Morgan Fred...think about that. When wouldn't you want to obtain the highest value for your holdings? Whether selling for your grandfather or yourself, if somebody is going to offer you $1,500 for this coin in a PCGS holder over $750 for a NGC holder, wouldn't you want the additional cash?
Ed, I didn't look up the differences in current realized prices between PCGS and NGC for MS-65 or -66 31-S cents. If the difference is, in fact, this great, then I would certainly go with PCGS. And for that number of zeroes, I'd shell out the $99 and $50 for the membership and one-shot submission to PCGS if it means a net gain of $600, all presuming a PCGS dealer isn't nearby. No doubt about it. But if the differences were only a few dollars (up to $150), I'd go with NGC. By your response, I might guess that the difference is with the former rather than the latter. |
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Valued Member
 United States
382 Posts |
I was just using the prices realized (post #1) with Heritage Auctions for PCGS versus NGC in grades of MS63 and up. I was shocked that PCGS was obatining almost double what NGC was getting for the same coin in the same MS66 grade.
Hence, I agree with you. Spend $50 on a yearly silver membership, submit any 5 coins mix-n-match ($18 each - economy service), and even with the costs of submission and all, you are still way ahead (in Heritage Auctions that is)...IF you get the grade of MS66 for this 1931-S Lincoln.
I guess I need to look at dealer sheets, because Heritage must attrack a huge and loyal PCGS following...but at almost double the prices realized? Makes me want to buy some NGC coins and "cross-them" for the same grade. If they don't, well I am out the submission fee. If they cross (or better!), I am way ahead. I know it happens, but there are some serious dollars that could come into play.
Edited by zakgold
04/12/2005 3:34 pm
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Valued Member
United States
421 Posts |
Looking at the proces realized, if PCGS and NGC would grade it exactly the same, PCGS is the better choice. If PCGS would grade it a grade lower than NGC (not unlikely), NGC is probably the better choice.
If it is a no question 65 at either service, PCGS is probably the better choice. If it is a maybe 66, you are probably more likely to get that 66 out of NGC and they would be the better choice.
My guess (and it is only that) is that it is tougher to get a 66 out of PCGS on this coin than at NGC since the jumps in price between the 2 grades are so different for the two services.
No way would I try to sell it raw.
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Valued Member
United States
89 Posts |
Well, here are the populations for the 31-S Lincoln in MS-64-65-66 Red:
PCGS: 834-680-79
NGC: 365-212-18
Based on percent graded, it would appear to be harder to get an NGC grade of 65 or 66 than PCGS. Now this may also mean that better coins overall are submitted to PCGS. However, to justify the price difference you would want it to be "easier" to make 65 or 66 with NGC, and that does not appear to be the case.
I suspect the higher price for PCGS coins are driven by registry set builders. Early red Lincolns are very popular among well-heeled PCGS Registry Set participants, and from reading the PCGS Registry Forum, the competition is fierce!!
Is there a dealer in your area that will submit it to PCGS for you? I would hate to see you spend over $100 just to have one coin graded. If you have other coins to grade and join PCGS, go for the silver ($49 for submission privileges only) or platium ($199, and you get 8 "free" submissions and the PCGS grading book). Gold is a ripoff now -- you pay $99, and you only get the PCGS grading book for the extra $50.
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Valued Member
United States
421 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by Connecticoin
Well, here are the populations for the 31-S Lincoln in MS-64-65-66 Red:
PCGS: 834-680-79
NGC: 365-212-18
Ahhh! There's a good bit of extra info. I think I would be more likely to send it to PCGS, then. Edited by Stujoe
04/12/2005 5:58 pm
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Valued Member
United States
458 Posts |
 I think its all hype!!! I was a member of both services PCGS & NGC, I sent them both coins to be graded, I was diappointed with all the returns from BOTH services, BUT I found that NGC more "fairly" graded these coins accurately than PCGS. PCGS has a history of "undergrading" coins---Rumor has it that they do not believe a "perfect" coins exists, so trying to get a MS70 or a PF70 is fantasy land..So when I compared the results from these same rolls if you will, I beleived then and still do to this day that PCGS undergrades severely---compared to NGC. All I want is an accurate grade, not low grade, not high ACCURATE So why does this happen? It is something that they PCGS has cultivated over the years--It is perception, a false one at that. After all they were the very first slabbing company, you have to respect that--BUT when an owner of coin dealership is also the owner of the most "popular" and most "overpriced" slabbed coins in the country, and since storys have circulated about under the table stuff---well I am suspicious--Conflict of interests smells all over pcgs--(What a position to be in eh  , send coins in to the outfit who undergrades and I own, get a nice grade the sell at over priced prices, whata country)-I understand that the guy who ran PCGS is now running NGC, bird of feather seem to fly together. For now I am only a member at NGC, mainly since ANA approves them now over PCGS, you gotta figure PCGS just did not offer enof doe when they lost that logo--  I would not pay you for that penny in a pcgs or ngc slab that kind of money even in a ms67 grade!![:0] Edited by CiScO
04/12/2005 8:16 pm
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
What I don't fully understand is why there should be any market difference between PCGS and NGC. Both are top notch services with almost impeccable reputations among knowledgable numismatists. Both adhere to established grading standards and grade as fairly as humanly possible (albeit arguably) and certainly more so than the other services (possibly ICG and ANACS excepted). Yet there exists a difference in returned values. Is this something historic in which NGC lost the confidence of numismatists at some point or is it a result of self-fulfilling prophecies such as we are herein engaging in which if enough people discuss PCGS bringing in greater values than NGC, the cycle continues and repeats itself?
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Valued Member
United States
89 Posts |
Well, you will get opinions all over the lot about the top 2 TPGs. For what their worth, here are my observations: A common theme I have seen is that, overall, PCGS is more "conservative", and that NGC is more "consistent". From what I have seen so far, whether one or both is true can vary by series, era, grade, etc. For example: Lincolns, Morgans, Walkers appear to be graded roughly the same between the two, Modern proofs are a tad looser at NGC, FBL on Franklins is easier to get at PCGS (focus on bottom lines), etc, etc. Also, there seems to be a consensus that grading, overall, has tightened up lately, except for Morgans. One more observation: It seems to me that ANACS grades MS Morgans a tad tighter than NGC/PCGS. And ANACS Morgans tend to bring less money than comparably graded "top 2" coins (for example, ANACS MS-65 commons can typcially be had for $20 to $30 less top 2 coins). Looks like some good value in the ANACS Morgans. All these are observations based on my (limited) experience and discussions with other collectors -- and should be taken with the proverbial "grain of salt" |
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by Connecticoin
Well, you will get opinions all over the lot about the top 2 TPGs. For what their worth, here are my observations:
A common theme I have seen is that, overall, PCGS is more "conservative", and that NGC is more "consistent". From what I have seen so far, whether one or both is true can vary by series, era, grade, etc. For example:
Lincolns, Morgans, Walkers appear to be graded roughly the same between the two,
Modern proofs are a tad looser at NGC,
FBL on Franklins is easier to get at PCGS (focus on bottom lines),
etc, etc.
Also, there seems to be a consensus that grading, overall, has tightened up lately, except for Morgans.
Connecticoin, I'm afraid I can't agree with you on PCGS's grades on Morgans. I've submitted over 75 Morgans to PCGS within the past 18 months and not a single one has come back above what I had hoped even in my fantasies. Raw Morgans that I thought might grade at, say MS-65 based on PCGS MS-65 Morgans I have in my collection came back MS-63 or MS-62. Same/same crossovers and resubmissions: not a single one came back higher than as sent in, even with the older green labels, and a few came back lower. The only thing going my way these days and the main reason I continue to submit to PCGS is that they have a higher intrinsic value once so graded. The main reason I'll submit an NGC Morgan to PCGS is for my PCGS Registry Set (Carson City Morgans) which, of course, must all be PCGS coins. I still have two NGC CCs to go and I'm scared to death than PCGS will downgrade them; I have no hope whatsoever that PCGS might upgrade them.  |
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Forum Mom
 United States
5877 Posts |
Fred, I think you may have hit one of the reasons that PCGS coins bring more than NGC -- registry sets. An NGC coin cannot be used in a PCGS registry set, therefore you don't have as much of a market for them.
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Valued Member
United States
382 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by CiScO
I think its all hype!!! I was a member of both services PCGS & NGC, I sent them both coins to be graded, I was diappointed with all the returns from BOTH services, BUT I found that NGC more "fairly" graded these coins accurately than PCGS.
Hype or no hype...PCGS is definitely getting a bunch more for their coins than NGC who gets more than ANACS who gets more than ICG who gets more...get the picture? I may not be interested in buying a PCGS certified coin, but if I could sell one, get more dollars for it than the others, I have to follow where my wallet goes. It's like a gold label on a bottle of beer. Does that make the beer taste any better? But, there any many people that will pay a $1 more per 6-pack for the same beer than a 6 pack without that gold label. So much for my analogy... |
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by Susanlynn9
Fred, I think you may have hit one of the reasons that PCGS coins bring more than NGC -- registry sets. An NGC coin cannot be used in a PCGS registry set, therefore you don't have as much of a market for them.
Susan, you may have hit on a major consideration yourself. I didn't think that there were enough Registry collectors to impact the market to a measurable degree, but I haven't really checked the numbers and hadn't thought it through. If there's enough Registry collectors, it would certainly push prices higher if a collector (like moi) needs a particular date badly enough, especially since PCGS accepts only PCGS coins while NGC's Registry accepts both NGC and PCGS coins thus slanting the demand for more PCGSs. Also, Registries would take the gem grades and lower populations out of the market as collectors held them for their Registries making the values go up even further. Speaking only for myself, my Carson City mid-MSs won't see the light of day in the market for a long, long time. |
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Valued Member
United States
382 Posts |
Ahhhh...those CC Morgans...  I have only 5 in my collection. I picture them used during poker games somewhere out West. At least out West they used the Morgan dollar over paper dollar bills. I guess some of those silver prospectors trusted the actual value of the coin instead of a promise from the Federal governmant. Sometimes you imagine where the coin has been, who lost it, who found it, who spent it and who eventually saved it. If it could talk, the stories it could tell. It is one of the reasons I collect coins.  Edited by zakgold
04/13/2005 06:56 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
980 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by Morgan Fred
[quote][i]
Susan, you may have hit on a major consideration yourself. I didn't think that there were enough Registry collectors to impact the market to a measurable degree, but I haven't really checked the numbers and hadn't thought it through. If there's enough Registry collectors, it would certainly push prices higher if a collector (like moi) needs a particular date badly enough, especially since PCGS accepts only PCGS coins while NGC's Registry accepts both NGC and PCGS coins thus slanting the demand for more PCGSs. Also, Registries would take the gem grades and lower populations out of the market as collectors held them for their Registries making the values go up even further. Speaking only for myself, my Carson City mid-MSs won't see the light of day in the market for a long, long time.
This thread, hijacked though it may be (sorry zak- but I guess you did some of the hijacking yourself  ) is an example of how a thread can stimulate new thoughts- one of mine- Fred, why PCGS registry? Since NGC accepts both, but PCGS only PCGS, why reward PCGS, which is more "selfish" as it doesn't recognize NGC? You could always reslab your remaining few NGC coins as PCGS later for resale if that is the issue- and since you are concerned that PCGS will downgrade your NGC coins, isn't that enough incentive not to resubmit? Or is the price differential great enough to overcome that 2-3 point expected drop in MS state? Don Edited by SFDukie
04/13/2005 12:34 pm
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by SFDukie
This thread, hijacked though it may be (sorry zak- but I guess you did some of the hijacking yourself ) is an example of how a thread can stimulate new thoughts- one of mine- Fred, why PCGS registry? Since NGC accepts both, but PCGS only PCGS, why reward PCGS, which is more "selfish" as it doesn't recognize NGC? You could always reslab your remaining few NGC coins as PCGS later for resale if that is the issue- and since you are concerned that PCGS will downgrade your NGC coins, isn't that enough incentive not to resubmit? Or is the price differential great enough to overcome that 2-3 point expected drop in MS state?
Don
Ahhhh, a good question, Don! The answer is merely that I started with PCGS a number of years ago. The first slabbed Morgans I bought happened to be PCGS and I stuck with them ever since. The higher values of PCGS vs NGC came only later. I decided on a PCGS Registry less than a year ago when I realized I had a number of CCs, most in PCGS slabs. Even now, I could switch to NGC Registry since I haven't submitted to a Registry yet; I still might switch since I still have two NGC Morgans, but it's hard to change my mind in my sunset years once it's made up.  |
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Posted 04/12/2005 3:32 pm
