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New Member
 United States
2 Posts |
I am so grateful for this help. I knew being a counterfeit was one possibility. My friend who owns it may be disappointed to know it's not authentic, but on the other hand it does make it sort of special. And I am HIGHLY impressed that someone was able to figure this out. Thank you. (And I apologize for writing about 117 varieties when I meant to say varieties through O117.)
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
No tip off slaufman.....I memorized all of the Overtons, and I knew that I had seen this coin before....I have a pretty good memory for things that interest me, and a counterfeit of this quality is very interesting.
Actually Vesta, your friend should not be disappointed....the coin is worn, and so in that condition, the counterfeit is probably more valuable than most genuine coins of this date....Believe it or not, there are folks who actually covet these things.
By the way, maybe your Overton book is sorta outdated?....(there has been an O-118 variety for quite a few years now).
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
zeewool since you know the Overtons better than I do could you help with this one. (I have no connection to this auction) http://cgi.ebay.com/1819-8-Large-9-...em2a0c6341acThe guy who consigned it to this guy conned a couple of us into providing a free attribution service for him but we could not identify this one (he made out like they were part of his collection when actually he wanted the numbers so the ebay seller could list them in the auctions.). I don't know where they got the O-101 but that is definitely wrong (Or the Overton book is wrong.) Edited by Conder101
12/10/2010 12:23 pm
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Sure Conder...obviously the auction of O-101 is incorrect, and so may be the Overton book....I don't have one, but I did read the 4th edition once....I was not at all impressed, (written by some guy who doesn't know left from right) if you know what I mean.
The coin in that auction is definitely O-102.
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
The right-side base serifs of the T's on the reverse are a smoking gun attribute - definitely O-102.
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
I was unaware of that trivia point until just now.....you are right though, the right feet are sorta deformed on all of those Ts aren't they? Thanks for the pointer Dave.....I will remember that.
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Overton, 3d Edition. His son-in-law, IMO, rather messed up the 4th Edition so the Third is my reference.
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Quote:
His son-in-law, IMO Well, with a name like "IMO", you really can't expect too much out of the guy. Or is IMO his initials? Ignacio Marcello Overton maybe? |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
 " In My Opinion," of course.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8904 Posts |
Ah, jocularity, jocularity! |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
O-102 had been my tentative attribution as well but in the Overton book it appeared that the 8 in the date was a block 8 while the 8 on the coin was a fancy 8.
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
I do not know how to explain it, as it is counter-intuitive to me, but the later the die state, the flatter both the 8 & 9 tend to be on the bottoms....Could be coincidental based on the examples that I have seen, but this one seems to follow the pattern.....(At any rate, your initial attribution is correct.... It most definitely is 102).....While I realize that the rest of the world attributes by means of dates and T/I relationships....I do not, as I have my own smoking guns--- based on obv star point relationships (to each other) and rev letter relationships (to each other)....For me, attribution takes approximately two or three seconds per side....just long enough for my memory to jump start....If the obv is unshared, then the rev is unnecessary, (and visa versa).   |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Quote:
O-102 had been my tentative attribution as well but in the Overton book it appeared that the 8 in the date was a block 8 while the 8 on the coin was a fancy 8. That's why Heritage is as integral a part of my attribution process as is Overton. The book provides pickups; Heritage provides high-res images so I can compare other details. Especially the letter relationships zeewool mentions. In the absence of a smoking gun, these are normally varied enough - and obvious enough on all but the most-worn coins - to cement an attribution. Of course, Heritage results much be taken with a grain of salt due to the chance of misattribution. I give greater weight to ANACS attributions, and sometimes look at 8 or 10 different auctions to make sure the attribution is common enough to believe it. I really, really like that star-point relationship thing, zeewool. You've just added another weapon to my arsenal. |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Right you are Dave....Here is a picture from a recent request for attribution thread where only an obv photo is supplied....This one was easy because the obv is not shared with any other variety.....In a case where only one side is visible, we can rely not only on star points, but but date relationships to the bust, and to each other....to some folks, it may not appear that the lowest numeral is the 2.....(but it is)...  .....when the obv is shared, then die wear becomes the deciding factor....as you imply though, if the coin is worn, it is perfectly acceptable to me to throw my hands up in a fit of rage, and scream for a rev photo.  |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Quote:
as you imply though, if the coin is worn, it is perfectly acceptable to me to throw my hands up in a fit of rage, and scream for a rev photo. With denticles present, the inner/outer star point relationships are well-defined and at worst capable of narrowing the process down to 2 or 3. Star 7 and the T-I are my primary starting points. Star 13 is the next tier, but that's generally the first place the denticles disappear. I'm liking your thinking with date placement. Often it'll be the only reliable way to truly narrow down the obverse, since Star 7 - hairline can be pretty common. In the real world, though, the reverse is my primary target and the obverse usually plays the role of "confirmation." |
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Posted 12/10/2010 04:13 am
