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Feds Seek $7m In 'Liberty Dollars'

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Pillar of the Community
United States
842 Posts
 Posted 04/04/2011  6:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ancientcoinguy to your friends list
They secretly are just trying to take all of his silver and this is their only excuse to do so. :)
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United States
189340 Posts
Valued Member
United States
244 Posts
 Posted 04/04/2011  6:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wei Fun to your friends list
Never mind the dubious pricing (see the article linked by jbuck), I have to suspect that the motivation for the persecution (I mean, of course, prosecution) was to ensure that commerce is only ever conducted in official currency. Not because there's anything illegal about a barter "currency" per se, but simply because the govt was afraid of the emergence of a private barter currency that might impact their ability to collect taxes on everything a person does.

Other countries have had alternative currencies circulating at the same time as their primary currency, and haven't suffered as a result. Germany has a bunch of them, for instance.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1388 Posts
 Posted 04/05/2011  12:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Darth Anarchus to your friends list
... comes down to taxes... they take your money, even if it's not even money
Pillar of the Community
United States
3294 Posts
 Posted 04/05/2011  08:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nod2003 to your friends list
Domestic terrorism? That prosecutor needs to get out his law book/dictionary and start reading because he is coming off as sounding very foolish.
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Canada
1733 Posts
 Posted 04/05/2011  3:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ugly to your friends list
I actually think if the convicted had been more careful to differentiate his currency from US legal tender he would have been fine. After reviewing the marketing materials and coins myself I honestly believe the intent was simply to get rich off seigniorage and everything was geared to making people believe this was the next big thing in currency. I honestly believe the intent was not innocent at all.

The US prosecutors did the right thing in taking this to court imo. If this had been approached correctly, the whole thing would have been above reproach and nothing would have happened. It's hard to prove intent, but once you establish that pattern of behaviour in a person or corporation nothing seems to tick a judge off more.

Conrad Black comes to mind.
Pillar of the Community
United States
642 Posts
 Posted 04/05/2011  4:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rjkingston to your friends list
I agree the 'Domestic Terrorism' claim is ludicrous. The guy seemed like a he was trying to make a quick buck though. And putting dollars on the coins was argued as his attempt to make them 'legal tender'. That being said, using specie, or precious metals as legal tender is a right granted to the states so we don't have to be bound by the corrupt Fed's currency.

Congress has the right to create legal tender....whether they have the right to delegate that to the privately owned and operated Federal Reserve is another story.
Valued Member
United States
314 Posts
 Posted 04/06/2011  08:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ayejay1974 to your friends list
So why don't they go after the Federal Reserve and Government for not following our very own Constitution? You know, the part that clearly states that nothing but silver and gold shall be used as Legal Tender. Last time I checked, My coins and paper bills are not backed, nor made with either.
Valued Member
Japan
71 Posts
 Posted 04/14/2011  04:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add goodwin to your friends list
i wonder if it would be legally permissible for, for example, Starbucks or any other market entity to sell their goods / services for other than legal tender?, or if 'selling' on such terms would be illegal, engage in business activity only on 'barter' terms, so that any customer would not 'buy' something but 'change' it for a certain amount of... gold for example (e.g. "our company will change this cup of coffee for a 1/1000 oz of gold")...
Valued Member
United States
314 Posts
 Posted 04/14/2011  06:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ayejay1974 to your friends list
They wouldn't allow much barter with large businesses for too long. Anything that could effect the taxation would be stopped rather quickly.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 04/14/2011  11:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list

Quote:
You know, the part that clearly states that nothing but silver and gold shall be used as Legal Tender.

Because it doesn't say that. It says no STATE can make anything but Gold or silver a legal tender. No such restriction is placed on the Federal Government so they are free to make anything they want a legal tender such as an unbacked paper currency. Perfectly legal under the Constitution.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
3692 Posts
 Posted 04/14/2011  1:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Libertad to your friends list
"Attempts to undermine the legitimate currency of this country are simply a unique form of domestic terrorism," U.S. Attorney Anne Tompkins said in a statement after von NotHaus was convicted."

Maybe this guy should audit the Fed and the IRS. Terrorism? What a fad. I fear nothing about this man and his trinkets. I'd be more afraid of martial law than a man who is only following his constitution.

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United States
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 Posted 04/14/2011  1:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list

Quote:
"Attempts to undermine the legitimate currency of this country are simply a unique form of domestic terrorism," U.S. Attorney Anne Tompkins said in a statement after von NotHaus was convicted.

I've been following this story and waiting for any comment from the Feds about how von Nothaus is cheating people by using something other than silver in his coins, using a lower purity silver than the government to make his coins, or by putting less silver in them than the government does. So far, I have not seen a single comment from them or anyone else that this case constitutes fraud. Seems to me that if anyone wants to make silver coins out of .999 fine silver and put a full amount of that in their coins, what's the problem? Clearly, this is an authority issue and not a fraud issue.

The recent Utah law about allowing people in Utah to use gold and silver coins as legal tender could provide an interesting twist to the von Nothaus escapade. What if states, like Utah and Colorado, were to create state medallions made from 1/10, 1/4, 1/2, and 1 ounce of copper, silver, and gold that had nature scenes from their state and the state seal on them? These would not be called money, would have no denomination on them, would have weight, metal type, and purity on them, and would not contain any words that appear on official US coins. What would there be to stop the citizens of those states from actually using these medallions as money? Nothing that I can see.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4008 Posts
 Posted 04/14/2011  1:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list

Quote:
So why don't they go after the Federal Reserve and Government for not following our very own Constitution? You know, the part that clearly states that nothing but silver and gold shall be used as Legal Tender. Last time I checked, My coins and paper bills are not backed, nor made with either. - ayejay

Who do you think it was that loosed the dogs on von Nothaus? It is unlikely that they would then turn on their masters. If they did, there would be no "Good doggie" or cookie for them!
Pillar of the Community
Canada
3692 Posts
 Posted 04/14/2011  1:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Libertad to your friends list
Jealousy. Someone who stood to gain from this man's non-existence is grinding him.

So the purity is .999 on these coins? I looked at some Jackson half ounces in hand the other day. They seem off but that's because I've never seen them before. The skeptic in me said RUN AWAY
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