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Replies: 48 / Views: 7,586 |
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Valued Member
United States
493 Posts |
According to Mike Findlays market analysis of Canadian coins in this past issue of Coin World, unless it is registry set material, PCGS and ICCS slabbed coins are selling at discounts to catalog values.
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Valued Member
Canada
183 Posts |
At my recent coin show almost gave away my old USA silver not to many collecting them.Silver from RCM and .9999 rounds, old canadian paper money and pocket watches was a good seller.I was glad to sell my old USA collection, low grades just melt value.Have over 2000 old silver waiting for silver to hit $75.00 a troy ounce,The melting pot takes all kinds of silver ugly even your good old USA coins.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
629 Posts |
Silver coins in my mind are overpriced, if they are bullion valued. Therefore, why invest in common coins if they are just going to fluctuate with the market for the commodity. WHEN there is a correction in the silver pricing, perhaps then would be a good time to fill in those common dates that you are missing. But nice coins should trade independent of their silver values. But getting back to the main question - We need to have a value for our collectible things. I believe that CCN trends is the most accurate for what is available in the market for us. Since the publication comes out twice a month, it can react quickly to price changes. Sometimes I wonder if the trends is published too often.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1051 Posts |
Low prices in Trends benefit nobody. Dealers see the value of their inventories drop, collectors see the value of their collections drop. In an odd quirk of human nature, people in fact generally do tend to buy high and sell low (hence the quote instructing you to do the opposite, as instinctual as it seems, it's not). Nobody wanted to touch silver when it was under $10, as it approached $50 everyone and their dog wanted some.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1442 Posts |
So true...lol...about 95% of the buying on ebay these days is bullion. Somehow, I dont think all those people buying 1976 Olympic silver coins at $55-$60/oz will be too happy with their purchase in the short, or medium term....especially as the Silver bubble has just burst...:) Meanwhile, neglected key coins are going for up to 75% off trends...especially if in an American TPG slab...those are probably the best undervalued treasures on the market right now...;)
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1733 Posts |
@1cent - Low trend price benefit the collector. Not people with heavy investments in massive collections, but people who are actively collecting. Low Trend prices do not benefit sellers or current holders, I agree.
I believe the internet has reached a stage where the broader audience dictates prices now, not the brick and mortar dealers. I feel that access to information and a wide variety of coins and conditions is bringing coins DOWN from what was an artificially generated price point. It is my belief that the 70's and 80's with access to low price marketing paper materials raised coin prices because there was a perception that you only had access to the say five examples of a coin within 100 miles of you.
This is no longer true. I can now buy a small beads that was sitting in a case in Germany or a 1921 specimen set in Australia through the wonders of global communication. Choice and global competition is bringing coin prices down. Also bringing coin prices down is what I alluded to previously, the concept of hobbies is fading and new collectors are not joining this gentleman's hobby the way they once were.
Prices were inflated by an artificial assumption that there would be more collectors down the road than ever before and everything would be in huge demand... guess what? This pyramid scheme fell down. The worst is yet to come - the uptake by new collectors will not keep pace with the deaths of the boomers and when these folks kick the can for the last time and their kids ditch their collections... see where I'm going?
When I consider Trend pricing, I take into account that the majority of the publishers advertising revenue comes from the people they most rely on and who have the most communication access to them personally ... the dealers. As a result they are in a position where downgrading the value of a dealers inventory could very well result (in extreme cases) in insolvency depending on how he is financed and thus eliminate one of their ad revenue suppliers. I also keep in mind who these folks all talk to... especially in Canada. It's a clique, one I have avoided for my entire coin collecting life and it borders on being collusive in nature. (though I don't believe there is any intention for it to be this way and thus not a crime) . Not through any criminal intent at all, just that there are so few willing to put themselves out there into this small market that they just end up with each other. Sort of like people who like line dancing hang out with each other.
In summary, I believe the collection of data of coin sales has become very complex and essentially beyond the ability of a small organization to reflect accurately. As a result I consider all things Trends to be about dealer pricing models, whether their pricing is lower or higher than Trends doesn't matter- it's not what I myself will pay or have ever paid.
The above is merely a few paragraphs from a tired guy and is offered freely, like all free opinions it should be valued accordingly.
As a follow up to this, I am going to scan and post the first newspaper ad I ever kept from what was once a major dealer in Canada, Simpsons @ Feb 14th, 1978. They were advertising their buying prices, amazing low by contrast. In my mind, this was the beginning of the run up on coin prices and we will see a steady drop in many prices except the truly rare and beautiful over the next decade.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1442 Posts |
Mr.Ugly....I would actually make the opposite argument. Internet has actually opened the hobby of Canadian coin collecting to millions of new collectors. Think the German collector with a fetish for Canadian Victoria halves would travel across the world to buy from a limited choice in a Toronto coin shop? No. But with ebay, now he/she can buy to his hearts content from anywhere in Canada. I agree that brick and mortar coin shops have been rendered useless, except to an older population that wont touch a computer or buy on ebay. And with time, many will close shop altogether as that population dies off. ebay has been around for 13 years, yet, I can make the argument that Canadian coin prices have doubled across the board in the last 5-10 years, and for some keys, more than doubled. With all the excess availability of coins across the country...how would you explain that? I'd explain it by pointing out that demand has likely increased even more. I would also point out, that while coin shops could present a false "scarcity" of literally any coin...ebay reveals the TRUE scarcity of any coin. If you can't buy it on ebay, for weeks or months on end...guess what...its darn scarce...no matter what trends or coin shops say. Its the ultimate free market. Although price and scarcity will not always match. Boomers were brainwashed into investing all their money into stocks, bonds and real estate, and are too busy dealing with a 50% haircut on most paper wealth. Boomers did not invest into rare coins...and yes, a few considered it a "gentlemanly hobby", and only fewer still "an investment". I would argue that my generation (gen x) is more acutely aware of real value, rather than paper value...and thus I consider plowing $2400 into a VF30 1893 10 cent round top a good "investment" first and foremost. Since we have to deal with the mess that you boomers created...especially inflation, whether real or perceived...you will continue to see this shift of numismatics being seen as an investment or a store of value...rather than a fun hobby for the smart or wealthy...which is what it was for you guys...because you lived in paradise for 30 years... And believe me, for every clueless grandson that liquidates his grandpa's collection at market price, there's dozens of us just waiting to scoop them up.... Compare the Canadian numismatic market to the US market...where coins sell for 10x the price for the same mintage....or the bubble happening in the Australian numismatic market now. I dont see a bubble in Canadian coins...how can there be if almost no one is buying? :)... Probably the best time to be buying rare Canadian coins is now, as no one is buying them. Just as I see 100 people buying silver bullion for every 1 buying a rare Canadian coin (peak of a silver bubble)...when just 2-3 years back, it was the opposite...(no one wanted silver at $8...well..I did...but had no money to buy it...lol)...
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1733 Posts |
I was hoping someone would chime in with a counterpoint. Thanks Dan. I'll let it stand but I stick to my points as stated, except for truly rare and beautiful, most prices are dropping. You brought up the price of keys rising to counter that argument, but as I said, "with the exception of the truly rare".... Truly rare; meaning there are none to buy most of the time. What we see is a drop in the price of common coins passed off as scarce and they will continue to drop as far as I can see.
As to the boomer comments, I'll just shrug. I don't really care to debate it. The argument that gen x has knowledge of true wealth stymies me however. True wealth is having something people pay you for, a necessity such as energy, food or housing for example. Coin collections however, they are not wealth imo. I think coins are luxury items and as such interest is waning as people concentrate their purchasing power in more critical life areas - Food, shelter, education and future savings.
Obviously, you feel differently and have thousands to spend, so I understand your point of view is coming from that position. I personally and sincerely hope your collection meets all your expectations down the road. I have none for mine, they are merely small works of art I've borrowed for a while and have a fluctuating value in real terms I would never depend on. FWIW I do have my great, great grandfather's collection of George II and III coins from Hibernia and Britain. Their value has certainly gone down in respect to what it was once in inflation adjusted dollars. I don't really expect my own collection will fare any better down the road with the exceptions as noted of the truly rare pieces.
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
1554 Posts |
 WOW, Both Ugly and Danlo brought up amazing points that I've had in the back of my mind but never said out loud! I do agree with Ugly regards to the comment of the BabyBoomers kicking the bucket and the void not being filled by GenX. AND, I also agree with Dan regards to the mess that us baby Boomers have left the World in. I also agree with Dan that E-bay is the new Venue that's going to make the Mom and Pop (brick and mortar) shop obsolete very soon. E-bay is sort of the International Population Report of the scarcity of any item you are looking for, regardless of what you collect. Now, talking about scarce coins, this is the time to grab as many rare/scarce pieces as you can grab because of one small issue. Everyone (like Danlos) mentioned has turned all their time and resources to bullion, leaving the hardcore Collectors to clean-up on the good stuff. Lately I've felt like a little boy in the candy store after the staff/management have gone home for the night and left me all alone to tend the goodies. Well guess what, I've been tending to them all right, and I've got a feeling Danlos can feel my vibes right now!! I'm gonna grab as many goodies as possibly before the gold/silver bubble busts and everyone glides back down to Earth. I can't even list the incredible buys I've had on E-bay in the past 2 years, nobody would even believe me. However, Dan and Ugly, You both made some amazing points in this thread making it a blast for me to have initiated. Judging by your writing skills and the way you both articulate about the future of Collecting, I feel you both are seasoned Collectors with a coin collection worth boasting about. It's sad we'll never meet in person, but I guess to have the privilege to write to you here on the forum is better than nothing. Sincerely Yours...........glenzy1 
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
902 Posts |
I'm a boomer, but don't plan on kicking that bucket for a long time yet
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1442 Posts |
Glenn...I share your feelings of giddiness :)...in ONE month of shopping on ebay I've grabbed: 1c 1954 NSF EF 5c 1965 large beads, attached jewel EF 10c 1893 round top 3 in VG, and VF30(?) 10c 1936 bar MS64 25c 1906 small crown in G 25c 1936 dot-bar EF 25c 2000 map mules x 2 50c 1870 no lcw x 2 (beat up) dozens of other key 25c and 50c Vicky's (1872 A/V, 1890, 1894, NFLD 1880, 1888, etc...) $1 1967 diving goose in PL65 ...and hundreds of error coins, for peanuts (no one wants them ?!)... The only coin I was really chased away from was the 1921 5c VF30 I slapped a $8500 on and was outbid :O... I can only imagine the deals you've grabbed in 2 years! By that time I will definitely be broke...lol :)... I am a noob (and hopefully not a total boob)...and I am grateful that experienced collectors such as yourselves share your views and experiences... ...i pour over these posts and try to absorb as much of the imparted wisdom as I can...Thank you!! :)
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3692 Posts |
Have Trends prices gone down since the correction in silver price?
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Valued Member
United States
493 Posts |
I created this Trends comparison this morning on some of the large cents. Both Trends are by Mike Findley. CCN Trends is from the April 12-25, 2011, Vol. 48 Number 26 edition which I think was his last effort for CCN. The Coin World Canadian Trends, May 2011, is from his efforts for Coin World on line. Even though the CDN $ is trading above par against the US greenback, the prices in USD are noticeably lower. How can the same person do trends for 2 different magazines, within 1 month of each other with currencies that are essentially at par and come up with such differences? This really does drive back tho the original question, are CCN Trends too high? Is Mikes Coin World efforts an attempt to put out a more accurate assessment or does it reflect that the demand in the US for Canadian material is that soft? Is it even appropriate to compare the 2 together as I have done? Lots of questions on this one. 
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
9864 Posts |
Interesting comparison dan-in-CL,thanks for taking the time to prepare this. As a large cent expert south-of-the border what's your explanation for this? Is there a price difference?And if there is,are Mr.Findley's estimates realistic?
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
1554 Posts |
 Dan in crystal Lake, we'll have to change your I.D. to Dan in Penny Heaven!  Glenn
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