Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Royal Estate Auctions - $1 Coin Auctions300,000 items to help build your collection! Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Specializing in Modern Numismatics Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

Vote The Land / Free - Counterstamped Large Cent Token

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
First Page  Showing last 15 replies.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 19 / Views: 5,814Next Topic Page 2 of 2
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
Canada
9865 Posts
 Posted 08/08/2011  10:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list
Informative,thank you
Pillar of the Community
United States
1143 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2011  7:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cointagous to your friends list
Thought I would pull out and share the example I have. There is a modest amount of verdigris hidden in the hair and hairlines as well. I am quite suprised at the even distribution of large cent dates listed. Cheetah would you elaborate on the idea that pieces might have been struck following 1844?

Vote-The-Land-/-Free---Counterstamped-Large-Cent-Token

Vote-The-Land-/-Free---Counterstamped-Large-Cent-Token
Pillar of the Community
United States
731 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2011  11:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CheetahCats to your friends list

Quote:
Thought I would pull out and share the example I have. There is a modest amount of verdigris hidden in the hair and hairlines as well. I am quite suprised at the even distribution of large cent dates listed. Cheetah would you elaborate on the idea that pieces might have been struck following 1844?


Bowers avers that there were two organizations which could have been potential candidates for the VOTE THE LAND/FREE counterstamp.

The first was the Free Soil Party.

The second was the National Reform Association.

The National Reform Association and its initiatives took place up to the 1844 Presidential election. Among the various beliefs of the organization was that every American should have the right to own land.


The Free Soil Party, in contrast, had a tenet which believed that as a condition for new states to join the Union, the state had to agree that under no circumstances would slavery be permitted within the state.

The belief from either organization fits nicely into the VOTE THE LAND / FREE counterstamp.

Given both potentialities, Bowers proposed that a better way to narrow down which organization was responsible for the counterstamp was to look at the population of known specimens and their associative dates.

Had the Free Soil Party been responsible for the VOTE THE LAND / FREE counterstamp, there would be many more post-1844 specimens with the counterstamp. However, pursuant to his census, very few (about 5%) date older.

Thus, it would stand to reason that for whatever purpose of the counterstamps, it would have to be something different than the Free Soil Party. And given that the majority of the counterstamp specimens exist prior to 1844, it would stand to reason that it would be more probable that it was for the National Reform Association. Such a probability is heightened by the fact that a spike in the number of counterstamped large cents occurs in the years just prior to the 1844 election, and dwindles to a steady number therebefore -- which would be in line with the various dates of large cents in general circulation.

Vote-The-Land-/-Free---Counterstamped-Large-Cent-Token

Those dated later would have been struck whimsically.
Edited by CheetahCats
08/20/2011 11:31 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1143 Posts
 Posted 08/21/2011  03:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cointagous to your friends list
They were struck in such small quantities and almost every year is represented. Its not like they were striking random dates from what was available in ones pocket change of the time. You would think if they were going to advertise something that much higher amounts would be struck in total. So that has me wondering if they were for used in some manner such as an award/reward for such an association. The near even amounts represented would support this threory. Its interesting they are considered Hard Times when they clearly span earlier than that.
Pillar of the Community
United States
731 Posts
 Posted 08/21/2011  03:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CheetahCats to your friends list

Quote:
They were struck in such small quantities and almost every year is represented. Its not like they were striking random dates from what was available in ones pocket change of the time. You would think if they were going to advertise something that much higher amounts would be struck in total. So that has me wondering if they were for used in some manner such as an award/reward for such an association. The near even amounts represented would support this threory. Its interesting they are considered Hard Times when they clearly span earlier than that.


The Hard Times Era was from 1833 through 1844. The tokens were struck/counterstamped in the early 1840s up to the 1844 election. That would qualify them as being from the Hard Times Era.

Please clarify why these strikes wouldn't be random from pocket change. Up to specimens dated in the 1830s, there is an even distribution. Thereafter, the numbers increase -- as could be expected since newer coinages would be most prevalent in pocket change.

The numbers cited in the census are those which survive -- Not total struck. In the late 1850s, as the U.S. began to emit small cents, there was a concerted effort by the mint to pull large cents out of circulation given their high copper content. It would stand to reason that the majority of large cents, including those counterstamped, would have been pulled and melted.

Am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

Thanks,

Cheetah
Pillar of the Community
United States
1143 Posts
 Posted 08/21/2011  1:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cointagous to your friends list
I would assume there are more pieces than the census lists including ones that were eventually melted, lost, or not accounted for. What the census shows to me is a very even distribution and one could even argue that the dates not represented might not be accounted for. If one went to the bank in 1844 and purchased 75 large cents (a guess) I would expect an very uneven date mix. So you can either believe they were struck at one time and that by chance the date mix is quite even which could have happend. If earlier examples show greater wear on the host coins then I would accept that idea. I would imagine these didn't see much circulation and were kept as mementos or pocket pieces. Your example is holed as to be worn on a chain or sewn onto a piece of clothing which was common. Had I not seen the census I would assume they were struck at once or over a year or two. But the idea comes to mind that possibly they were struck over time in small amounts. If earlier examples show little wear on the host coin that would support this idea. Since we are not even sure who struck these and for what purpose its all guess work. What I meant about pocket change is its unlikely to have such an even date mix when when randomly pulling coins from ones pocket. When I look at mintage numbers of large cents versus the census I dont see any correlation and that is most likely because 56 examples is too small to reflect that. You would need to know who struck them in order to know the timeframe in which they were struck.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1143 Posts
Pillar of the Community
United States
1143 Posts
 Posted 08/21/2011  2:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cointagous to your friends list
Having read that I would be inclined to believe it was the National Reform Association.
Pillar of the Community
United States
731 Posts
 Posted 08/21/2011  2:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CheetahCats to your friends list

Quote:
http://www.kansasmemory.org/item/212514

Having read that I would be inclined to believe it was the National Reform Association.


That is in the sources as per the original post.


Quote:
Sources and Images:

1. David Bowers, The E-Sylum: Volume 4, Number 16, April 15, 2001, Article 7
2. Standard Catalog of United States Tokens 1700-1900 4th Edition, Russell Rulau, Krause Publications, 2004
3. Americans and Their Land: The Deep Roots of Property and Liberty, Will Sarvis, Contemporary Review, 2008
4. Kansas Historical Society and Kansas Historical Foundation, Exhibit 'VOTE THE LAND / FREE Stamp"
5. Young America!: Principles and objects of the National Reform Association, or Agrarian League / by a member, 1845
6. History of the Labor Movement in the United States: From Colonial Times to the Founding of the American Federation of Labor, Philip Foner, International Publishers Co, 1979, pg.228
7. George Henry Evans & The Origins Of American Individualist-Anarchism, Kenneth R. Gregg, Jr.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1143 Posts
 Posted 08/23/2011  02:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cointagous to your friends list
I did see it in your references but I did not see this unitl after I had posted so I put the link up.

The donor, Ellis Smalley was a blacksmith, political activist, and former probate judge near Council Grove. Smalley was a delegate from Plainfield, New Jersey, at the first convention held in October of 1845, and was elected Secretary of the National Reform Association
Pillar of the Community
United States
4419 Posts
 Posted 08/23/2011  11:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list
Enjoying the informative exchange on the sidelines, I am!

While the NRA is the likely issuer of this counterstamp, the Kansas website states: "In 1848, NRA was absorbed into other political movements, like the Free Soil and Abolitionists."

Is it not possible then that some abolitionist participants in the NRA adopted the slogan beyond 1844? This would account for the later dated specimens. My own collection includes three pre-1844 dated coins with this counterstamp. One, a Coronet type, has no date. I've seen others, where the date was worn or absent, too. One just sold on ebay for $99. I strongly suspect that there are a few hundred examples of this counterstamp extant.

In the realm of counterstamped coins, there are examples of stamps having been used after the original issuer had passed. Silversmith, John Aitken, is one such example as I recall. Perhaps, a successor, a son or other member of Aitken's family wanted a keepsake or was simply curious how the stamp would look on a coin?

IMHO, if this dual scenario is true, there's really no means of positive attribution for a given piece, regardless of the date. The NRA would be the default issuer, but who's to say that an abolitionist wouldn't have been proud to share the sentiment ... VOTE THE LAND FREE. Regardless, a great slogan, that; and, a slogan which certainly has present-day implications! From my perspective, this all adds to the mystique of this issue.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1143 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2011  03:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cointagous to your friends list
Exo I found the ebay listing you mentioned.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vote-Land-F...em56459fe1e5

I tried Google searching images to see what other examples are pictured and there are a few including the one Cheetah has. I do note a few more dateless examples found as well. Cheetah I was just trying to engage conversation on your article and know what you write is sound and quite informative.
Pillar of the Community
United States
731 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2011  1:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CheetahCats to your friends list

Quote:
Enjoying the informative exchange on the sidelines, I am!

While the NRA is the likely issuer of this counterstamp, the Kansas website states: "In 1848, NRA was absorbed into other political movements, like the Free Soil and Abolitionists."

Is it not possible then that some abolitionist participants in the NRA adopted the slogan beyond 1844? This would account for the later dated specimens. My own collection includes three pre-1844 dated coins with this counterstamp. One, a Coronet type, has no date. I've seen others, where the date was worn or absent, too. One just sold on ebay for $99. I strongly suspect that there are a few hundred examples of this counterstamp extant.

In the realm of counterstamped coins, there are examples of stamps having been used after the original issuer had passed. Silversmith, John Aitken, is one such example as I recall. Perhaps, a successor, a son or other member of Aitken's family wanted a keepsake or was simply curious how the stamp would look on a coin?

IMHO, if this dual scenario is true, there's really no means of positive attribution for a given piece, regardless of the date. The NRA would be the default issuer, but who's to say that an abolitionist wouldn't have been proud to share the sentiment ... VOTE THE LAND FREE. Regardless, a great slogan, that; and, a slogan which certainly has present-day implications! From my perspective, this all adds to the mystique of this issue.


I concur. There is but little way that an incontrovertible conclusion can be ascertained.

As per the OP:


Quote:
Given the census and distribution of known and verified specimens, I'm inclined to agree with Bower's theory. Pursuant to the waning popularity of Evans' campaign in 1844, it is clear why the highest population of specimens are dated 1844 and earlier.


And..


Quote:
Bowers finally speculates that if indeed there are specimens which exist that are dated later than 1844, they were struck casually, and are not pursuant to the National Reform Association's efforts. I'm also inclined to agree.



Quote:
Cheetah I was just trying to engage conversation on your article and know what you write is sound and quite informative.


My sincere apologies for coming across as being terse. It was not my intent.

In fact I appreciate your ongoing interest and engagement in these topics. (The same sentiment indeed applies to Exo, as well as the others who have posted at various times.) There aren't a lot of us enthusiasts who hold such interests!
Pillar of the Community
United States
4419 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2011  3:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list
No apologies necessary, Cheetah. Intent can easily be misconstrued in these cyber chat sites. Despite our sometimes redundant statements, they do help to drive home the point for readers.

There's one point that I could've been more clear on. It's possible that some individual(s) may have simply cause some of these to be struck for whatever personal reasons. It's remarkable that the original die has survived. Given that survival, it's only natural that someone who possessed it might want to hammer out a few trial pieces, and what better host than an old copper cent?

I always look forward to reading your posts, Cheetah!
Pillar of the Community
United States
1143 Posts
 Posted 08/24/2011  10:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cointagous to your friends list
Agree no apologies necessary. In reading your article I just wanted to offer another possibility. But more than likely they were struck in a short time period for a specific purpose and on what coinage was available. Pieces could have been struck at later dates but I have been unable to find any dated later than 1844. I too always enjoy reading your posts.
Page 2 of 2   Previous TopicReplies: 19 / Views: 5,814Next Topic Page 2 of 2
First Page  Showing last 15 replies.
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.


    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.38 seconds to rattle this change. Forums