Valuable "Cleaned" Coins?

Dave,

Like texasmick, I am having a hard time grasping your post. Is the first coin what the MS 63 is SUPPOSED to look like and what you were expecting, while the second coin is what they sent you?

What grade is the second coin?

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Originally posted by just carl

As to the continued falicy of Acetone, also remember any contaminates removed by the Acetone will also take some of the metal with it.

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It is true, but don't you agree that in your case those contaminants would further continue to damage the metal underneath, if left alone? Neutralizing the surface of the coin and then placing it in an enviroment where it is exposed to as few elements as possible would prolong the life of your coin.

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Originally posted by just carl
This is absolutely true. It should always be known that the toning, dirt look, discoloration or any contamination on the coin was formed by the chemical combination of the coins metal and an outside substance. All metals oxidize or combine with some type of gasous substance. Yes even Gold, Platinum, etc. only they are more resistant than other metals. ANY CLEANING of a coin will remove whatever contaminater is there and take the metal of the coin with it. NO cleaning agent on Earth will take the contaminate off a coin and leave the original metal of the coin intact. Even in the lesser contaminates on a coin such as a plastic gunk formed from years of being encased in a soft plastic will release some of the metal of the coin when the contaminate is removed. And for those that are stuck on the word PVC, look it up. PVC is a plastic that is stable at normal temperatures. It will NOT melt onto a coin until 212C (413.6F)If the PVC attained that temp, the coin has more problems than PVC. As to the continued falicy of Acetone, also remember any contaminates removed by the Acetone will also take some of the metal with it.
Summation is DO NOT CLEAN COINS. Sorry about the long post but as a Chemist, Engineer, teacher, it is difficult not to want to educate.

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Your opinion is obviously well-informed, so I respect it as truth. What comment do you have on electrolysis for reversing the toning process? I haven't tried it yet, but it's on the list of things to learn.

Jeffmo if your example of an 1884P Morgan dollar in XF is valued, say by the Grey Sheet, at $16 the value of the coin will be LESS if a dealer says it has been cleaned. You used the term "sells" in your example so it threw me a little. What a coin sells for and the current value in any grade are two different things.
I would like to point out to all involved that a great number of coins have been cleaned in the past and many are difficult to determine with the naked eye. I have owned cleaned coins, probably still do, but avoid them at all costs when possible. When you get into key dates I have found those "cleaned" coins may be the only affordable way to own them and a cleaned coin can and will fill a hole in an album until something better can be found. It is very important that you are aware of the cleaning, the possible lower grades that will come with the cleaning and the lessoning of value. I would like to say all dealers will be upfront about cleaned coins but, for many reasons, they are not. In many instances dealers don't have the time or resources to closely look at every coin that crosses their counter as it is just impossible. Other times the dealer may now know (at the time of sale) but didn't know when he put down his hard earned cash into purchase the coin so now he is faced with the task of at least breaking even on a bad purchase and then there are those who knew the coin was cleaned or was involved in the cleaning who are selling with the full knowledge they are ripping you off. The latter is the ones who give "cleaned coins" the bad reputation.
I actually applaud ANACS for slabbing cleaned coins as the cleaning is now exposed for all to see and it can be priced accordingly. The grading services who refuse to slab cleaned coins are contributing to the continued success of the con man and rip-off artists in numismatics.

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Originally posted by crystalk64

Jeffmo if your example of an 1884P Morgan dollar in XF is valued, say by the Grey Sheet, at $16 the value of the coin will be LESS if a dealer says it has been cleaned. You used the term "sells" in your example so it threw me a little. What a coin sells for and the current value in any grade are two different things.
I would like to point out to all involved that a great number of coins have been cleaned in the past and many are difficult to determine with the naked eye. I have owned cleaned coins, probably still do, but avoid them at all costs when possible. When you get into key dates I have found those "cleaned" coins may be the only affordable way to own them and a cleaned coin can and will fill a hole in an album until something better can be found. It is very important that you are aware of the cleaning, the possible lower grades that will come with the cleaning and the lessoning of value. I would like to say all dealers will be upfront about cleaned coins but, for many reasons, they are not. In many instances dealers don't have the time or resources to closely look at every coin that crosses their counter as it is just impossible. Other times the dealer may now know (at the time of sale) but didn't know when he put down his hard earned cash into purchase the coin so now he is faced with the task of at least breaking even on a bad purchase and then there are those who knew the coin was cleaned or was involved in the cleaning who are selling with the full knowledge they are ripping you off. The latter is the ones who give "cleaned coins" the bad reputation.
I actually applaud ANACS for slabbing cleaned coins as the cleaning is now exposed for all to see and it can be priced accordingly. The grading services who refuse to slab cleaned coins are contributing to the continued success of the con man and rip-off artists in numismatics.

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Thanks again, Terry. Just to clarify, if a dealer is selling an 1884 P Morgan dollar in VF, not XF, for $16 and they acknowledge that it has been cleaned, how much more would it sell for if it had not been cleaned?

And am I correct to assume that the cleaning reduced the coin from a higher quality down to the VF grade?

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Originally posted by biokemist6

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I have to take exception with some of things you have stated. PVC damage is not directly due to polyvinyl chloride (a rigid polymer), it is due to the plasticizers used in the manufacturing process to give the PVC flexibility. These plasticizers are volatile organic chemicals that off-gas over time from the PVC. This is what causes the green gunk on coins stored in PVC flips.
Secondly, acetone will not react with silver, gold, or any natural toning(corrosion) on the surface of coins. Acetone is an organic solvent- it will only remove organic material such as dirt, green gunk, or finger grease, not any metal from the surface of the coin. I will say that the green gunk can corrode the surface of the coin, but that damage has already been done by the time a coin iis dipped in acetone- the acetone has nothing to do with that.

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Also, note plasticing agents are added during the manufacturer of plastics and in becomes dormant after finalization of the product. It is other softer plastics that cause what people see as a contaminate on coins. Note the crystalazation of metalic substance denoted the types of contaminates and green is not a crystline form of such additives. Examples are the different colors of diamonds that actually take on the color of embedded metalic or compounded crystaline forms. Also, true, Acetone will not react with most metals used in the manufacturer of coins. HOWEVER, as noted any, absolutely any, removal of a contaminate that has reacted with the metal of the coin will also remove that metal with the contaminate. And that is what I was refering to. Further the so called green gunk on some coins is different pending on exposure. For example a cent will actually combine with Oxygen forming Cuprus Oxide and then exposure to moist air with CO2 will form Copper Carbonate
[CuCO3.Cu(OH)2]and that is what is normally the green stuff on cents and has nothing to do with Sulfur as so many think. However, where SO or SO2 is in the air, it would react with the Copper Carbonate to further produce a darker greenish substance
Regardless coins should not be cleaned. Even coins corroded as noted above can have this reaction ceased by no longer exposing to the elements.
And as to the person that posted using the electrolysis process for cleaning coins, again remember removing most substances from a coin will remove some of the metal if in fact the contaminate is a compound.

CARL,
Very good point, there may be a time when the only chance we may every have to get a key date coin will be a cleaned one. And if we do not get it then we never have one.