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Commems Collection Modern: A Very Weakly Struck Modern Commemorative

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 Posted 07/23/2012  2:33 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add commems to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I couldn't resist having some fun with the title of this post!

I've thought for some time it would be interesting to have an un-struck modern commemorative planchet in my collection so that I could better illustrate the process of how coins are made to young/new collectors.

On ebay recently, a seller had multiple commemorative silver dollar planchets up for bid so I decided that I would try to win one. They all closed during my local coin club's meeting, so I placed a bid on the one scheduled to close first, left for the meeting and hoped for the best. When I got home, I was pleased to find that I had won the lot with a bid well below my maximum.

Shown below is the planchet in an ANACS holder. I chuckle when I see these pieces assigned grades. I can see having them authenticated, but how do you assess the level of wear on a coin that hasn't been struck yet? Also, though you can't tell from my scans, I believe this is actually a planchet intended for a proof coin vs. an "MS" planchet intended for a BU coin. It has a very reflective/mirror-like finish indicative of a polished planchet. I have seen others that do not display this mirrored look and believe them to be intended for BU coins.

You'll note from the label that the planchet is the correct weight for a modern commemorative silver dollar (26.73 grams), but that at 37.5 mm it's a bit smaller than the standard/finished diameter of 38.1 mm. From this, we learn that during the striking process, the diameter of the planchet grows by 0.6 mm due to the flow of metal within the striking collar -- 0.6 mm represents an increase of 1.6%.

The planchet shown is a Type II planchet which means the rim has been created on the silver blank; Type I planchets have not yet had their rim created via the upsetting mill. A Type II planchet does not yet have its reeded edge, however, as that is created by the collar during striking.

An interesting little addition to my modern commem set...

Enjoy!






Collecting history one coin or medal at a time! (c) commems. All rights reserved.
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 Posted 07/23/2012  2:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Are these rejects or just extras that hit the market?
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 Posted 07/23/2012  3:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add commems to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In talking with error coin dealers over the years, it doesn't appear as if these planchets are defects/rejects.

Exactly how they were released into the secondary market is open for discussion. Like with many of the various error coins, however, it's likely that some available pieces are the result of legitimate accidental release while others followed a more clandestine path to "freedom."

Collecting history one coin or medal at a time! (c) commems. All rights reserved.
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 Posted 07/23/2012  4:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would agree it was probably a mix.

I always find it very interesting how some of these errors get out and how some errors are allowed to exist while others are chased by the secret service for decades. In this case since its not money yet I'm sure they had no reason to care about these
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 Posted 07/23/2012  5:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HelzelsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Cool! that is pretty awesome! I agree, it is weird to see a grade assigned to them.

Alex
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 Posted 07/23/2012  5:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oih82w8 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Would you mind saying how much your winning bid was?
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 Posted 07/23/2012  7:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add commems to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My winning bid was less than $100. These pieces often go for more, but I think the fact that several were offered simultaneously kept the winning prices artificially low.

Collecting history one coin or medal at a time! (c) commems. All rights reserved.
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 Posted 07/23/2012  7:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nickelsearcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great fun indeed on the thread title commems.

You know of course that I would read it and reply ... believe I might hold the record for a reply to every one of your threads?

Sooo ... being the devil's advocate here ...

What evidence makes you convinced this is a modern commemorative silver dollar planchet?

Planchet specifications were the same for classic USA silver dollars ... so perhaps this is a left over planchet from the ill fated 1964-D Peace dollar strike?

David
Take a look at my other hobby ... http://www.finewoodcrafter.com
Too many hobbies .... too much work .... not enough time.
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 Posted 07/24/2012  10:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wquinn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
And how do they know it was for a commen and not a Morgan or Peace dollar? I think they are just using the text "Commem Silver Dollar Size" as an example and not as proof that it was intended for a commem, which is quite misleading and possibly false info. Shame on ANACS for doing that! They should have just dropped the Commem text, stating it was just a Silver Dollar Size.

Cool buy though at a great price. I've never thought to look for a planchet like that.
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 Posted 07/24/2012  10:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Merc Man to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for sharing commems. I get smarter every time I visit the US Commemoratives board.
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 Posted 07/24/2012  11:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
And how do they know it was for a commen and not a Morgan or Peace dollar?

Commems mentioned that the planchet was polished which would indicate that it was intended for striking a proof coin. In light of that, the odds of it being a proof Morgan or Peace planchet are incredibly small while the odds of it being a proof planchet for a modern commemorative dollar would be very high.
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 Posted 07/24/2012  4:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add commems to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
...perhaps this is a left over planchet from the ill fated 1964-D Peace dollar strike.

Now that I take a closer look - I think you're right! To test the theory, I put the dollar planchet on a table with a 1964-D Kennedy half-dollar and a 1964-D Washington quarter. Each was placed at the corner of a perfectly equilateral triangle. After a few seconds, all three coins began to vibrate and move closer to each other -- renewing bonds formed long ago in Denver! (No offense intended, just a small attempt at humor.)


But seriously,


Quote:
What evidence makes you convinced this is a modern commemorative silver dollar planchet?


It comes down to the "look" of the planchet. An un-struck planchet for a Morgan or Peace or Liberty Seated silver dollar would be anywhere from almost 80 years old to more than 170 years old at this point (the 1964-D Peace dollar not withstanding) -- they have a more "aged" look than a more recent commemorative dollar planchet.

Classic silver dollar planchets that I have seen almost always have a dullish gray appearance and do not appear "fresh from the mint." In hand, the planchet I've shown here looks brand new and ready to be struck as a proof coin.

PCGS, NGC and ANACS all distinguish between the classic silver dollar planchets and the modern silver dollar planchets -- after examining all the coins and planchets that they do, I'm confident in their ability to understand the differences in appearance between "new" and "old" planchets.



Quote:
I think they are just using the text "Commem Silver Dollar Size" as an example and not as proof that it was intended for a commem, which is quite misleading and possibly false info. Shame on ANACS for doing that!


I respectfully disagree. Each of the major grading services distinguishes between Morgan/Peace planchets and those intended for a modern commemorative dollar. PCGS, NGC and ANACS would not specify the type of planchet without being VERY sure of which type it is -- it is their reputation that is on the line. ANACS has done nothing wrong on the label for this planchet -- they have identified it correctly as a modern planchet of the correct size and weight of that of a modern commemorative silver dollar.


Collecting history one coin or medal at a time! (c) commems. All rights reserved.
Edited by commems
07/24/2012 5:35 pm
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 Posted 07/24/2012  4:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add commems to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
believe I might hold the record for a reply to every one of your threads?


You absolutely do nickelsearcher -- you have my heartfelt thanks for you unwavering support!

Collecting history one coin or medal at a time! (c) commems. All rights reserved.
Edited by commems
07/24/2012 4:18 pm
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 Posted 07/24/2012  8:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nickelsearcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Another great reply commems ... once again you have demonstrated with logic and fact that your original supposition is most likely indeed correct.

Sooo ... the reason I pay attention to and reply to your posts it that you have quickly gained my respect ... and that as well of the CCF family ... with your well written knowledgeable posts on a broad range of commemorative topics.

I suppose I have some knowledge of the topic ... but humbly admit that I am just a noobie in comparison to what you have obviously worked hard to achieve.

Your continued contributions to this great forum are much appreciated and valued ...

I still claim that you should write a book ... the breadth of your collection and the depth of your demonstrated knowledge should be shared with a larger audience.

Very well done indeed for all 500+ posts.

David
Take a look at my other hobby ... http://www.finewoodcrafter.com
Too many hobbies .... too much work .... not enough time.
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 Posted 07/30/2012  09:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add homerecher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Clearly a MS63. Clearly.
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 Posted 07/30/2012  2:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinsKelly to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
but how do you assess the level of wear on a coin that hasn't been struck yet?


Yes, I was wondering that as well - thank goodness it was not AU!


Quote:
Clearly a MS63. Clearly.


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