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1882-h Double Die, A New Find For Me.

 
 
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Valued Member

United States
172 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2016  02:52 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add yontan to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
*** Edited by Staff to remove YELLING. All capital letters is the internet version of yelling. Please don't do it in titles or posts. ***

I received this in the mail, thinking it was simply an 1882-H. When I looked closer, it proved to be a double die - just a little different than the big one, but in fantastic condition. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts about this coin.









Pillar of the Community
United States
2546 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2016  06:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You have an 1882 Obv 2/1. There were 3 different 2/1 dies for 1882. One(the type 1) was a 2/1 with no doubling in Canada or regina, but it had a repunched (minor) N in Regina. The type 2 had minot doubling in Cananda and Regina, but the denticles between Victoria and Canada are well offset. That is the one that you hvave. The type 3 is the heavy punch doubling on p.314 in the 2011 Charlton. The type 2 we didn't put in the book .. just the regular type 1 and the type 3. Nice find.
Valued Member
United States
172 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2016  01:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yontan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Since the type 1 - ordinary- is included, and the type 3 - extraordinary - is included, will the type 2 also be included at some future time? I have to reason that type 2 is also pretty scarce, and must command much more of a premium than type 1. Thank you for the information.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1403 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2016  02:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add canadian-varieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It will be included in my book.

Wonderful coin. Congratulations on the find.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2546 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2016  07:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, it is fairly scarce, but easier to find than the type 3. If we had included it in a book now, we would have assigned a multiple of 20-25 or about the scarcity of a DP#3 or #4, but less than an 1884 Obv 1. When we wrote the variety section for the 2011 Charlton, we placed a "premium" value or multiplier for each of the specific, listed, varieties over the value of a "normal" one. The $$ value of that variety was then extrapolated and compared to the retail price of an 1858 generic large cent in VF-20. In other words, how would the price/scarcity assigned to the variety compare to the cost of a VF-20 1858.

Charlton took our "multiple" and blanket used it for every listed grade for a normal coin in the front of the book... not a great way to set a value, but we were starting from scratch and this was the first time that collectors had produced a "variety" section rather than dealers/TPG's. It is now 5 years since the 2011 was published and true retail values have migrated more to realistic values rather than guesses. Our initial estimates have proven pretty acurate, with a few falling and some rising ... but you never see the same "multiple" applied across every grade in "Trends" or elsewhere.

Since a normal F-12 1882 Obv 1 Trends at $9, a guessed full retail of 20X would be $180 ... at 30X would be $270. Since you can usually find any coin listed in Trends at 70% of what's down on paper, your coin would guesstimate at $130-$200. If you want to see the "multiples" that we used when the 2011 was published, look on p.266-267 in the last column ... most people don't even know that it is there.
Edited by okiecoiner
04/19/2016 07:55 am
Valued Member
United States
256 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2016  12:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JHax to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Trying to figure out theoretical prices for "new" items is always a pain in the neck and difficult at best. Overall, Okie, you and your cohorts did very well and we all owe you our appreciation.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2546 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2016  4:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It was a joint effort. I think that there were 5 of us there at the end(Rob, Dan, Brad, Randy & I, but we brought someone in late. Each of us submitted our guesstimate for the multiplier (again for a VF-20 vs a normal one) and then took what was the consensus of our votes. On 90% of them, we were all very close ... the others we averaged after taking the high and low out.

Using the 1858 in VF-20 as a price check was the key. Say a normal coin is listed at $10 in VF-20 and we assign it a multiplier of 15 (so that totals $150). A VF-20 1858 is $150 so, when we compared the total, we were asking would a variety collector rather have the variety or the 1858 .. some non-1859's made the choices harder to come by. Since a vanilla 1859 is only 6-8 bucks in VF-20, it takes a pretty high multiplier to have it exceed the 1858 "I wanna have it".
Valued Member
United States
172 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2016  02:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yontan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
thanks again for all the info. I did look, and saw what you were talking about. makes sense.
Valued Member
Canada
472 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2016  2:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Strach-Man to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Youtan if you goggle search Victoria Large Cents click on the 4th link brings you to R. Turners webpage, then click The Hybrid Obverses and it explains the 1882's in detail with color pictures.
C.V is the research in your book done by you? Or information borrowed from other researchers who know their information is being published by you?.
Edited by Strach-Man
04/20/2016 2:59 pm
Valued Member
United States
172 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2016  11:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yontan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I thought about it a little more. I do understand the reasoning, but am left with one question. How does one figure for condition of the variety? Since the comparison is made using a very fine ordinary coin (of the variety), with the base being a very fine 1858, how are prices figured for an uncirculated specimen of any variety? Thanks for your help.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2546 Posts
 Posted 04/22/2016  06:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Condition doesn't really enter into to it initially. The "comparing to a VF-20 1858" part was only to ascertain if the "premium multiple" is/was realistic. The multiple, if deemed realistic on the first go-around, was then submitted to Charlton. Charlton then applied the same multiple across the board for each of their listed "grades.... to be used as a staring point and then let the market dictate the price as the years rolled on.

The "base" is NOT a VF 1858... the comparison was only to arrive at a multiplier that was realistic. There are many many Vicky varieties that are infinitely scarcer than an 1858 cent ... probably almost 3/4 of those listed in the 2011 Charlton are scarcer. The question needed to be answered was "what kind of value would you assign to the variety?" or "Is this variety in VF-20 condition worth more than a VF-20 1858?". Which would you rather have in your collection. We, the guys who went through the exercise, were all long-time and very experienced variety collectors with large volumes of coins to scan & compare. Some coins we had been keeping population reports on for years leading up to the publication. We were all very active on the old CCRS site 10-15 years ago and had already been working hard on research.
Valued Member
United States
172 Posts
 Posted 04/22/2016  1:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yontan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you okiecorner. Each time you reply I learn something new.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1403 Posts
 Posted 04/25/2016  11:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add canadian-varieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
okiecoiner...your work (the group) on the 2011 large cent variety section was unparalleled and remains an inspiration to a whole generation of new variety collectors that are right now mostly silent and flying under the radar.

It was far too good to be published in the Charlton Catalogue...
Pillar of the Community
United States
2546 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2016  03:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
C-V: Thanks, from all of us
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