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RCM cancels face value program  
 

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New Member
Canada
6 Posts
 Posted 01/07/2017  2:44 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Rob88 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
The Royal Canadian Mint has cancelled the face value program. That means no more $20 for $20, $50 for $50, $100 for $100 or $200 for $200 coins. The program was being abused by "manufactured spenders", who would buy as many coins as possible on their credit card for the air miles, cash them in at the bank, and do it all over again the next day. Although there was a limit for online purchases, these limits were not enforced at retail outlets. According to the financial reports on the RCM website, they redeemed over $8 million of these coins in the last quarter, which suggests an annual loss of about $32 million. If you go onto eBay, you will find plenty of listing for empty coin boxes and folders, sometimes in large lots. How does someone wind up with a huge stack of empty coin boxes? Because they cashed in the coins but kept the boxes (and probably the capsules, too). Here is an example: http://dcta.boardingarea.com/2016/1...nd-techniqu/
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Canada
6272 Posts
 Posted 01/07/2017  2:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silveroid to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to the CCF, Rob


Such info always makes me mad (inside)
Not about cancellation - I think we had enough of these items, but about abusers.

I can understand the family, that for living, has to use all the legal ways, and all the "loopholes" as this one.
But all these people, who have the money, and still all their thoughts about cashback here, points there, and other similar stuff.......could our government to organize kind of mandatory works, where such people will work with their hands or brain?
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United States
14731 Posts
 Posted 01/07/2017  4:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The system was set up to fail with that combination of no-loss and reward. I know some folks who did it strictly for the sheer fun of getting something for nothing from the government with very little work.

It would have been easy to limit the number purchased to a much lower and more reasonable level. That would have also kept the mintage down, which in turn would have greatly reduced the number that would have been cashed in.
Valued Member
Canada
97 Posts
 Posted 01/07/2017  5:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Canada67 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I suspect that the higher denomination coins are the coins that have gone back to the RCM. However, if you do the math based on $8,000,000, somewhere between 40,000 and 400,000 coins have been returned so far. The actual number is likely higher than 40,000, given that the mintages on the $200 for $200 were in the 20,000 - 25,000 range.
Valued Member
Canada
107 Posts
 Posted 01/07/2017  5:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mikesnickname to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The actions of a few, ruin the enjoyment of many.

I really enjoyed collecting these. The notion that there was "no risk" allowed me to buy the series with no guilt or anxiety of price drop.

I own the entire series. I guess I'll be saving some money this year.

PS. For once I'm happy with the way the RCM handled the situation. I would have been mad if they demonitized the coins like the Brits did with their face value program.

Valued Member
Canada
97 Posts
 Posted 01/07/2017  6:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Canada67 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I enjoyed collecting the $20 for $20 series, but got disenchanted with them due to the fact that the mintages for each new release seemed to keep rising. Now that the series has come to an end I will need figure out which ones I am missing and start hunting. Fortunately, I have the first releases, as those seem to be the tougher ones to obtain.
Valued Member
Canada
170 Posts
 Posted 01/07/2017  6:12 pm  Show Profile   Check thehulk's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add thehulk to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Is there an actual article or release that states the RCM has cancelled the face value program? I certainly wouldn't shed any tears but I haven't found any confirmation of this online.
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3778 Posts
 Posted 01/07/2017  6:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add commems to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Is there an actual article or release that states the RCM has cancelled the face value program? I certainly wouldn't shed any tears but I haven't found any confirmation of this online.

Appears to be based on rep comments at this point.

Being discussed here: http://goccf.com/t/262130&whichpage=3


Collecting history, one commemorative coin (or medal) at a time!
Original content (c) Commems, 2012-2018
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Canada
506 Posts
 Posted 01/07/2017  6:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JGG to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good! It is about time the Mint started cutting back their releases! Cut the rest of the NCLT releases back by 75% and rebuild your customer base next!
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Canada
989 Posts
 Posted 01/07/2017  7:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Soon, in my opinion, instructions will be sent to banks not to take them.. This was a scheme, in my opinion, to produce 10's of millions in revenue for the crown corp, sold as a more or less risk free purchase.

I thought the RCM would apparently only allow 5 per household? How were people buying truck loads of these? Seems a little off.

to me the ultimate abusers will be the mint if the banks are told not to take these back, which I think is likely.

Does anyone have the math on the face value of all x for x produced out of curiosity?



Edited by Alan
01/07/2017 7:48 pm
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Australia
14181 Posts
 Posted 01/07/2017  8:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To the OP:
A form of Greshams Law in practice.

Buy them at their PM value (below their face value) in the aftermarket, and flog them off back to the banks for a profit.
A way of making money without having to work for it.
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Canada
24 Posts
 Posted 01/07/2017  8:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add canada99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Basically, the mint is not willing to guarantee the retail value of any coin it sells.

Why would any want to buy a RCM product at the retail price?
New Member
Canada
6 Posts
 Posted 01/07/2017  9:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Rob88 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Is there an actual article or release that states the RCM has cancelled the face value program?


RCM Second Quarter Report:

"Numismatics revenue in the second quarter was significantly impacted by the lower sales of face value products partly impacted by management actions to mitigate risks associated with returned products. Management continues to monitor the performance of the face value program. For additional information on face value product returns, see Note 10 to the unaudited condensed consolidated financial statements... The Mint continues to monitor the risk associated with numismatic face value product returns." http://www.mint.ca/store/dyn/PDFs/R...%20FINAL.pdf

Here is a link to another article: http://dcta.boardingarea.com/2017/0...int-is-dead/

I can confirm that on January 4th, all links to these coins were removed from the RCM website (except archives) and they are no longer for sale. While there is speculation about the Mint's reasons for canceling the program, the Report seems pretty clear . . . too many coins were being returned.



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Canada
516 Posts
 Posted 01/07/2017  9:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Looney4Numi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Soon, in my opinion, instructions will be sent to banks not to take them..

One TD Bank branch manager told me that I'd have to wait 3 weeks for the RCM to verify the coins before they would deposit the amount into my account.

I went to another branch where I was able to cash them in after the clerk spoke to the manager. I had one $200 for $200, one $25 for $25, and 12 x $20 for $20's, for a total of $465.00. The rest I will keep for my collection.

I also believe that soon these will be harder to cash in. I did not buy them to make money, but because I liked them.
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Canada
6 Posts
 Posted 01/07/2017  9:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Rob88 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Does anyone have the math on the face value of all x for x produced out of curiosity?


Total mintage = 7,010,000 coins

Total face value = $209,625,000.00

The real figures will be slightly lower, because the last few coins did not sell out, e.g., Superman and Star Trek.

Edited by Rob88
01/07/2017 9:40 pm
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Australia
7096 Posts
 Posted 01/07/2017  9:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would imagine that due to so many of these coins being returned it would significantly reduce the number of surviving coins and would increase the rarity factor of the survivors.
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