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 Replies: 17 / Views: 2,909 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6130 Posts |
Another fun coin from the Crispus lot Constantine I CONSTAN-TINVS AVG, Diademed bust right PROVIDENTIAE CAESS, Campgate with 6 rows, 2 turrets, star above Mintmark T*AR (Arles, 3rd officina?)   Not the greatest shape, but the legends and mintmark are legible. This reverse is not listed under Constantine I, but is listed under Crispus, RIC VII Arles 268. Edited by Finn235
07/03/2017 3:52 pm
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Moderator
 United States
23731 Posts |
That's turning out to be a really nice lot
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Valued Member
New Zealand
292 Posts |
 Awesome  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
949 Posts |
Not sure why you say this reverse is not listed for Constantine I at Arles. It is listed so for two obverse bust types and two officinae. Your coin has the B1 bust type (laureate only) and so falls under #264, for which the officinae are attested for P and S. The officina mark on your coin is not clear, but if we read it as "T" then that is so far not attested for him. But the mint attribution does not change.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
6130 Posts |
Thanks for the reply. The reason I say this one is probably a mule is because the second to last letter in the reverse legend is clearly an S. That entirely takes the PROVIDEN-TIAE AVGG type out of the picture. In wildwinds and the spreadsheets at romancoins.info, the only -CAESS reverse for Constantine I is from Cyzicus, which is also noted as a mule (makes sense, why would the Augustus use that reverse legend?)
Double checked myself and both Crispus and Constantine II issued the PROVIDEN-TIAE CAESS type at Arles with mintmark T*AR.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
949 Posts |
Could we see a blowup of the last 5 letters of the reverse legend? The last letter looks to me like a G. The rest is too fuzzy to tell at this angle. Maybe change the lighting angle too? Making sure is better than inventing new discoveries from things that simply aren't clear. Then again, you have the coin in front of you. . . .
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6130 Posts |
Apologies for the image quality, the sun is already down so I am working from my desk lamp. Here is the end of the legend, where I am seeing -CAESS  I'll concede that the patina has consumed a lot of detail in the lettering, but the C and S are pretty clear to me. Here is the mint mark again  The AR again are heavily patinated, but the T* are very clear. |
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Pillar of the Community
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949 Posts |
To these old eyes your letters are clear. Looks like CAESS to me too. It seems you have a mule from an officina not listed for Constantine, as you said. It was, as you say, mostly dedicated to Crispus (5 obverse types) and with one obverse type attested for Constantine II.
Nice find! Now you'll be heard saying, "Hey buddy, got a match?"
Edited by lrbguy
07/04/2017 11:37 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6130 Posts |
Glad I'm not just crazy I'll do some more poking around for additional examples, but who should I reach out to for this one to ensure it's documented? Submit to Not In RIC? |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts |
That's a cracking lot you picked up Try posting on victors site, I posted my Constantine/ Sol from London on there and it somehow ended up in " not in ric " Just ask him, I am sure he will be more than willing to help. |
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Pillar of the Community
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949 Posts |
I second that suggestion!! Let Victor have a look at it by posting it to a thread of its own. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6130 Posts |
So far two at FORVM cast their vote for mule, but Victor thinks it may be an undocumented and exceptionally well-crafted ancient imitation or "irregular". Regardless, best $40 I have spent on any unidentified lot  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
949 Posts |
I'm guessing he doesn't like the awkward execution of the face of Constantine on the obverse. The reverse is clean and well executed, and could have been lifted/carried from an AE3 of Crispus. If it is an imitative hybrid, they started with a legitimate reverse. As for the iconography of the obverse, I have never seen anything quite like it from Arelate before, tis true. Anyone?
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
701 Posts |
Ellarby, here is something that might be a very dangerous fake that I have had for a couple of years( without realising ) I originally thought it was a mule but could not confirm it so threw it in with my barbs & contemps. This post lit a fire so I have dug it out for you, Obverse - constantinvsavg Reverse - caesarumnostrorum - vot x MM - ptr   This reverse type does not exist for Constantine at Trier from what I know. This begs the question, what is it ? I did a quick check on wildwinds for the listed VOT X types they had and something jumped out that may need a bit more attention. 3 types in particular - Rome ric vii, 238, Lyons cgb 34, 944. Aquileia ric vii-105. All Constantinvs avg type Obverse & all mule/ impossible type reverses creating " new " types that make no sense in the ancient world but would certainly have a purpose in the modern world. There are various others with different Reverse legends creating new variations etc all of which adds up to a tidy premium if you can get them into the system. I could be way off here but something just does not look right at all, please take a minute to have a look and let me know what you think. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6130 Posts |
I can see where you are coming from, but if these are indeed sophisticated numismatic forgeries, where is the paper trail? The forger would have "discovered" it, hyped it, and ridden that hype to the bank. I suppose that such coins could slip back under the radar of course, but I would expect their mark to be made, at least somewhwere.
I really wish I knew the provenance of this collection, but if the previous owner's widow was willing to take $40 for the whole lot, it seems unlikely that serious money was ever spent.
But, thanks for the warning and with that seed of doubt in my mind, I will be looking for evidence one way or another.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
949 Posts |
@tenbobbit: Did you look for Constantine II?
RIC 441 433 for Trier has your reverse (same style mm) and a bare portrait obverse with the inscription CONSTANTINVS IVN NOB C
with a vota reverse inscribed as you describe. (officinae P and S) This type for Constantine II was being produced in 323-324 at the same time that the obverse inscription for Constantine I read as you have described, with the same break pattern as I see in the coin photo (also officinae P and S). That was normally used with a SARMATIA-DEVICTA reverse. I was going to take a look at some of those for a similar style obverse, but I can't find the volume they would be in at the moment. However, I did see some similar style obverses among the Beata Tranquilitas coins for Constantine I from Trier.
I have not checked my material carefully, but from all this I would say that a mule/hybrid of authentic elements from Trier is plausible if someone grabbed the wrong reverse die and banged out a few. However, that says nothing about whether or not your coin is authentic except to say it COULD be.
Apart from being an unlisted hybrid, what about it particularly makes you suspect it is a fake?
Edited by lrbguy
07/07/2017 11:39 am
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Replies: 17 / Views: 2,909 |
Posted 07/03/2017 8:48 pm
