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Post Your Kingdom Of Poland Coins By Monarch 1587 - 1795

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 Posted 02/12/2019  12:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the compliments!

On the Sigismund III thaler, the mintmaster's initials appear to the left and right of the shield above the date. My Krause cataloge shows II is for Jakub Jacobson van Emden, mint contractor at Kraków 1624-30.
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 Posted 02/12/2019  01:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rayder to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm told it's a 1661 Solidus. Not in great condition but here it is.
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 Posted 02/12/2019  5:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
My Krause cataloge shows II is for Jakub Jacobson van Emden, mint contractor at Kraków 1624-30.



This thaler comes up pretty regularly at auction, and the European auction houses, including Polish ones like Michal Niemczyk give Bydgoszcz as the mint https://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotv...b4c27006b2d0. This may be a case where the wording in Krause ("mint contractor at Krakow") is a bit off. According to Gumowski (Handbuch der Polnischen Numismatik, 1960, p.48-49), Jacobson leased several of the Crown Mints from the treasury (including both Bydgoszcz AND Krakow), earning 15 groschen per silver mark converted into coin. He was at Bydgoszcz/Bromberg from 1617-1639, whereas Gumowski says the Krakow mint closed from 1627 to 1646 ("Im jahre 1627 wurde die Munze geschlossen und stand uber 20 Jahre still").
Edited by tdziemia
02/12/2019 5:41 pm
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 Posted 02/12/2019  9:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the additional clarification and the auction link, tdziemia!
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 Posted 05/01/2019  11:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Arkie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just picked up this Jan Casimir solidus (1664?). Hope its ok if I add it to the thread.



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 Posted 05/02/2019  08:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Absolutely! Thanks for keeping it alive.

I have been trying to learn about this type recently. There is a lot of good info in Numista.
This type, called the "Lithuanian solidus" with the HKPL monogram below the horse was issued three years, 1664-66. The TLB initials under the bust obverse were used at 2 mints: Vilnius (Polish Wilno) 1664-66, and Brest (Polish Brzesc) 1665-66. As best I can tell, the coins issued at Vilnius always have a star after IOAN in the legend to the left of the bust. Yours has a dot, which I think means it was minted at Brest. That would also put the date at either 1665 or 1666.
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces119359.html
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces119360.html

Giedrius is more experienced in coins minted in this part of the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth, and I hope he can also comment.


Edited by tdziemia
05/02/2019 08:54 am
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 Posted 05/03/2019  06:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A couple of recent adds for me.
First, this 1588 trojak of Sigismund III from the Riga mint. This is the first year coins were minted during this reign, and it has a younger looking portrait than any of my other coins from this reign. It's been cleaned, but it's tough to find nicer grade Polish coins of this era that aren't either slabbed or cleaned.



Next up, this copper solidus/schilling from the reign of Jan Casimir, which was an eBay purchase listed as 1660. I grabbed it because a couple of things interested me. First, I am not sure the date is 1660, as the 0 in this date is usually large and round. Second, there are several variants in the legends that I could not find in Numista, which has a rather extensive listing of the variants:
- The intials TLB under the bust appear to be (inverted L)TB or (inverted L)(inverted L)B. An inverted L is listed as a known variant for 1660 in Numista, but only in its normal position as the middle letter, not as the first letter.
- The reverse legend appears to read SOLI REGNV( )POLON 166?. I could not find this variant in Numista for 1660 or for any other year (and Numista lists many LEGEND variants for each date). Even SOLI REGNI( )POLON does not appear
- Lastly, the date looks like it could be 1663 or 1665 (16656 was the last year of issue, which rules out 1666 or 1668)?
All of this, plus the messy workmanship on the reverse (skinny eagle, eagle's foot overlapping the O in POLON, etc) leads me to wonder if the coin might even be a contemporary counterfeit.


Edited by tdziemia
05/03/2019 08:08 am
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 Posted 05/03/2019  09:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jadey to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@TDZ

On the solidus, I could see the last digit being a 0,3,5, or 6 from the second picture. The "E" on the obverse has me puzzled. I'm not sure how that could be an E unless the top bar is over the outside dot/circle. I'm wondering if the "E" is supposed to be whatever character (reverse epsilon?) is listed under the 1660 Variant on Numista (which happens to be the only one I noticed with the "L.T.B." if you're willing to interpret it that way). Of course, this still has SOLID instead of SOLI, but it is conceivable that there is a rose above the birds crown.


Quote:
Obverse
Lettering:
IOAN CAS REX L.T.B.

Reverse
Lettering:
SOLID R#1069;GNI (_) POLON 1660 (rose)


The only other coin I see that potentially matches the reverse legend as you is mentioned SOLI REGNI( )POLON is the 1659 example listed on Numista.

Edit, when I post the message, the special character that looks a bit like a reverse epsilon is being replaced by #1069;. I can't seem to fix that.
Edited by Jadey
05/03/2019 09:40 am
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 Posted 05/03/2019  3:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I could see the last digit being a 0,3,5, or 6

I agree. A 6 can be ruled out, as this type with the eagle was not minted in 1666.

I think you are correct that 1660 is the most likely of these dates. The obverse appears to be the "large head" type, which is only used 1659-1661. And while there is not an exact match for the reverse legend, I agree that the closest fit is for 1660.
The coin is partially off-planchet where the "rose after date" would be seen. To me, it looks like the eagle's crown extends into this area and there is no rose (as best I can tell, the rose should be nearly the same size as the date numerals from the Numista photos).

Finally, on the TLB initials under the bust, there is a 1665 variant with an inverted T, and a 1661 variant listed as TTB in Numista, so it seems anomalies here are not so unusual.

I am going with:
Obv: IOAN CAS REX (Inverted L)TB
Rev: SOLI R(E)GNV( )POLON 1660, Indistinguishable arms, no rose.

I've sent the same photos to WCN to ask if they think it could be a fake (not sure if they offer this service). The bust doesn't look quite right to me, the eagle doesn't look right, the arms at 6:00 reverse don't look right compared to what I see in Numista, and the workmanship of the reverse lettering is poor compared to other examples I have seen from this mint on-line (here is another 1660 I own):
Edited by tdziemia
05/03/2019 3:36 pm
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 Posted 05/03/2019  4:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jadey to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow, fantastic detail on that second one.
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 Posted 08/06/2019  12:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gallienus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
copper solidus/schilling from the reign of Jan Casimir, (here is another 1660 I own):


Very nice copper piece Tdziemia. Given the popularity of these two threads I wonder if you're interested in continuing to coins of the Russian occupation and up to modern (1989?) times.

I'd think many people would enjoy learning about those pieces as well.
Edited by Gallienus
08/06/2019 12:57 pm
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 Posted 08/07/2019  2:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@gallienus, It's a good suggestion, but I can't say I know very much about those eras or their coins (I have just a few 19th and 20th c.).

I suppose I can kick off the thread, broken into the eras that are typically found in catalogs or auctions, and invite everyone to chime in?
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 Posted 08/08/2019  7:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gallienus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was also hoping to get more feedback on this topic. My experience is also based on my experiences from the USA coin market to which I used to subscribe in the days of my youth.

Mint state Polish coins from the teens, 20's & 30's are cheap, apparently somewhat rare, & historically important being the 1st coins from the new Polish Republic. Contrast this to the US market where a 1917 half dollar is $30,000*. Those few people, like myself who have just a few coins in this era should be interested in learning more?

*PCGS price guide, 1917-s obv, ms65.
Edited by Gallienus
08/08/2019 8:04 pm
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 Posted 06/12/2020  8:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gallienus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just wanted to mention that the International Numismatic Conference will be held in Warsaw, Poland from 11-16 September, 2022. Note 2022: NOT 2020 nor 2021.
link is here: https://inc2022.pl/#the_Congress

Some write-up taken from their site is below. I plan to attend. Also I'm part Polish. Thus if anyone from here plans to go, send me an email and perhaps we can meet there.

=======================================================
The International Congress, which takes place every six years, represents the world renowned event in the field of Numismatics. It is attended by a great number of people and attracts scholars, curators of coin collections, auction houses and auction dealers from the five Continents. The Congress forms a part of the politics for the promotion, conservation, valorization and fruition of the material and immaterial Cultural Heritage.
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 Posted 06/12/2020  9:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good info!

I have no plans yet, but have family there I haven't seen since 1999.

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