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Just A Question Pertaining To 1922 Peace Dollars

 
 
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 Posted 09/18/2019  11:55 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add muddyknuckles to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Dont know if this is the correct place on the forum to post my question but I need answers and theres some serious collectors on here. 1921 Peace dollars were high relief in 1922 they started out high relief also but due to issues with the dies the high relief was phased out. 35,401 coins were struck in high relief from what I have read nearly all were melted down a short time later only 10-12 are estimated to exist in high relief matte proof and "atleast" one high relief business strike coin also exists. Does any one know of where I can find actual record of these coins being melted because I've only read "nearly all" were melted. Would they not have started putting them into circulation by the time the minted 25-30,000 coins? Am I wrong to inspect every single 1922 Peace dollar I see until my eyes hurt?
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 Posted 09/18/2019  3:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
First compare a nice uncirculated 1921 to any 1922 that you think might be high relief. It is an extremely rare coin but they had to be discovered by someone.

The chances of finding a 1922 HR in the wild is very close to zero. The vast majority of Peace dollars have passed through enough hands, both dealers and collectors, for the last century that an undiscovered example is very unlikely.

Show us photos of any you have a question about, one at a time and we can offer knowledgeable opinions.
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 Posted 09/18/2019  3:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Save your eyes.

This article on the 1918 Pittman Act disposal of silver dollars might interest you. 210 million silver dollars were melted ca 1920-22. The Mint would have had no problem melting the high relief 1922's in very short order.

https://books.google.com/books?id=k...1920&f=false

The new Peace dollars languished for years because there was no more demand for them than there had been for the superabundant Morgans. However, the Mint was obligated under Pittman to keep churning them out. They were releasing them up until the 1960's. Common dates like 1925-P were considered scarce for years, until vast numbers were suddenly dumped into circulation.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
09/18/2019 3:56 pm
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 Posted 09/18/2019  6:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add muddyknuckles to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for the article thq a good read especially about the Pittman act worst travesty in the history of US coinage. I have read a article or two about the Pittman act it sickens me to think about it. It was enacted in 1918 and melted all those beautiful morgans and possibly seated as well who knows it was to make way for the new Peace dollar which was to stop mintage in 1928 when Philadelphia finished the 360,694 minted that year to fully replace dollar per dollar what was melted. And what was melted under Pittman was not Peace dollars. Has anyone seen first hand written record of how many 22h.r. were melted? I have studied diagnostics between the two coins in question if I ever find one I'll let yall know
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 Posted 09/18/2019  7:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
thq - Just for the record - according to what I can find, the melting of silver dollars under the Pittman Act was suspended in May of 1919, and the number melted was just over 270M.
Edited by Coinfrog
09/18/2019 7:05 pm
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 Posted 09/18/2019  7:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for that correction and clarification, Frog.

Knowledge is by far the most precious asset for the coin collector.

At least you didn't say they buried all those Peace
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 Posted 09/18/2019  10:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The article didn't give specific dates, and my point was only that they were set up to melt coins on a grand scale. Those 1922's would have been gone in no time, and recoined into something else. The point about delayed release is that the Mint was sitting on a huge inventory of dollars and wouldn't have needed 25,000 more. We're lucky they didn't melt all those uncirculated cc's....or 1903-O's.....

I'd be doubtful that they kept detailed records of melting that are still available. The 1920 Mint annual report is interesting to read, though.

https://books.google.com/books?id=g...tman&f=false

The Mint had invested in large electric melting pots, along with all sorts of ancillary equipment to feed them. There is mention of a 10,000,000 ounce Pittman Act dollar melt conducted between December 1919 and March 1920, and that appears to be the last.

Here's the 1928 report, which gives a good summary of the whole Pittman period. The contributions of dollars for melting by branch is interesting.

https://books.google.com/books?id=S...port&f=false

My memory of silver dollars in circulation was that they were dirty-looking and big, and I always preferred silver certificates. They were popular mainly in casinos.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
09/18/2019 11:24 pm
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 Posted 09/19/2019  8:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ballyhoo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As far as a specific number of high reliefs goes we will never know. Although the mint melted down millions of circulated and uncirculated alike, there was and is no reason to record coinage based on type/strike Dates, maybe. So you would have to find a total number and average it out as a percentage against the known mintage and number of known survivors. The top three graders should get you close on the latter checking the number of high reliefs graded.
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 Posted 09/19/2019  9:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PCGS lists 8 1922 high relief proofs and 1 sandblasted high relief matte that they have graded. They do not list any regular issue survivors.

Heritage sold one circulated proof (VF25) in 2002 for $10,638. The rest of them are uncirculated.

Most of the Mint's huge inventory of silver dollars was the physical backing for silver certificates. The banks didn't order very many of them, because no one had a use for them. Pittman exchanged old silver for newly mined silver, subsidizing the mining industry.

"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
09/19/2019 10:55 pm
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 Posted 09/20/2019  11:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As mentiond there were a little over 35,000 high relief (actually I believe they were medium relief) business strikes make and so far one one has been identified. Supposedly in a mixed group of circulated dollars, and the one known is circulated. So where are the others? If they were all melted how did this one get out? If they were released why haven't more been found? Are there more out there? Most collectors probably don't know how to recognize them, and one circulated most dealers aren't going to pay attention to them either "it's just another circ common Peace dollar." The relief difference isn't that impressive, no where near as noticeable as on the 21 high relief. Just based on the relief I would not be able to tell them from the regular low relief 22. There are hub differences though which once you know them makes it an "arms length" variety.

Are you wrong to examine all the 22's you come across? No, If there is another one out there it will never be found if people don't look.
Gary Schmidt
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 Posted 09/20/2019  1:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Conder101, the one that circulated was a proof. No one has ever found one of the business strikes in the last 97 years.

PCGS estimates a survival of 10,000,000 1922-P's. They have slabbed nearly 120,000 of them just in MS63 and MS64. You would think that they would have slabbed a 1922-P high relief business strike by now, if any exist.

Those 1922-P's were probably melted as completely as the 1933 Double Eagles.

My 1921 avatar is a business strike made using the proof dies. They're not all that uncommon, but are only a small percentage of all the 1921's. I wonder whether the 1922 high relief business strikes were made with proof dies too.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
09/20/2019 1:20 pm
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 Posted 09/21/2019  10:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The discovery coin was an AU-55 and is in an NGC slab as a business strike. It is what they call the modified high relief or Medium Relief.

<a href='https://www.NGCcoin.com/coin-explor...86'>Check out the 1922 MEDIUM RELIEF $1 on the NGC Coin Explorer!</a>
Gary Schmidt
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1973 Posts
 Posted 09/22/2019  12:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting Conder101. A coin in 10,000,000, and not unlike the 1933 survivors....maybe employees stole a few....

Can you tell if it was struck with the proof dies? I wonder if the Mint wore that die pair out before starting with the new low relief design.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
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 Posted 09/22/2019  8:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add muddyknuckles to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Information about the 1922 high relief including die marriages and how many coins with each die...
https://www.PCGS.com/books/silver-d...18listings/6
Kinda old article from 2014 about a woman who inherited 2 of them from her father with province kinda...so easy to check the ones that run across my auction blocks maybe some day...

https://www.coinworld.com/news/prec...surface.html

Are there likely still more undiscovered? Undoubtedly tho doudt I'll find one before a 69 ddo1
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 Posted 09/22/2019  11:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting articles muddyknuckles. It sounds like they made a few high relief regular dies, though the first die pair might have used the proof set.

The reason I sought out one of the proof die 1921's was because they are fully struck. Except for the proof die strikes, most 1921's are very weakly struck and mushy looking. Even though they were struck with extremely high pressure, it was almost impossible for the planchet to contact the deepest parts of the die (Liberty's hair and the eagle's leg). The best struck regular die 1921 I have has a cracked planchet, which to me indicates that it was struck with extreme force.

It irritates me that the TPG's do not consider strike quality in their grading. Two of the MS67 1921 business strike coins PCGS shows in CoinFacts have very soft strikes. The absence of contact marks doesn't make up for the ugliness 1921 Peace dollars are noted for. When a 1921 is struck well it is one of the most beautiful US coins.



"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
09/22/2019 11:21 pm
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