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Can You Distinguish Real Toning From Fake Toning On Canadian Coins?

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 12 / Views: 710Next Topic  
Valued Member
Canada
180 Posts
 Posted 04/07/2020  9:05 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Not long ago I watched a video on youtube in which a guy used a boiled egg to tone up a previously cleaned coin. It makes sense - most silver tarnish is Ag2S, and since eggs off-gas a fair bit of H2S then it should work. And it does - I tried it with a dud coin I had lying around.

Anyway, it creeped me out. Trying to avoid coins that have been messed with and now this foulness! I assuming a way to detect fake toning is by looking for hairlines. But that won't always work....are there other things to look for?
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 Posted 04/08/2020  07:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'd always heard that burying it inside a potato and then baking it does essentially the same thing. I've never done it before .. just heard about it.
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 Posted 04/08/2020  07:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
can you distinguish real toning from fake toning?

Not always.
John1
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
Searched 5+ Million Cents Since 1971
Edited by John1
04/08/2020 07:47 am
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United States
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 Posted 04/08/2020  09:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kanga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Can I distinguish real toning from fake toning?

I assume you are talking about rainbow toned coins.
Then my most correct answer is "No".
I just look at the coin or images and think, "Does that look right?"
I'm probably correct more often than not.
But I wouldn't "bet the mortgage" on that opinion.

Fortunately I have no interest in rainbow toned coins so my "best guess" doesn't affect me.
I'm quite happy with brown copper and battleship gray silver.
That's also toning.
Describe it as if there were no picture.
Picture it as if there were no description.
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Canada
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 Posted 04/08/2020  10:20 am  Show Profile   Check Pacificoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pacificoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The real question should be ...... Is it market acceptable toning ?
That is , will it pass the sniff test of the TPG ers ?
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Canada
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 Posted 04/08/2020  10:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Kanga - not necessarily rainbow. When I tried it myself the result was a sort of pleasing, sepia colouring on the obverse with random-look grey, speckled crud on the reverse. Hmm - maybe the 'does it look right?' question is sufficient?

@Pacificoin - I guess what I'd like to know is what the sniff test? There's a huge spectrum of strange toning out there... some of it means that coin has sat around, quietly oxidizing away in some drawer, for the past 98 years. Some of it...not so much.
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 Posted 04/08/2020  1:07 pm  Show Profile   Check nickelsguy's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nickelsguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
so a blast white Victoria coin has been environmentally secure for 120 years.......lolol um nope but people want them and have them conserved to all look the same. To each there own.....notice I used the term "conserved" lololol
Edited by nickelsguy
04/08/2020 1:08 pm
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Canada
237 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2020  4:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumisCat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
On rainbow-toned coins, the colour should be settled around, not on, the raised devices. This is a helpful, if not foolproof method of detecting artificial toning. There are a lot of grey areas when it comes to identifying natural color (pun semi-intended). Some are obvious "jobs," others are merely market-acceptable, and still others are obviously natural. Like anything else, experience helps.
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 Posted 04/08/2020  5:43 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Are there other things to look for?


Yes. Genuine toning should have a "pull-away' or "shadow" effect around the devices, usually the legend closest to the rim.

Also, genuine rainbow toning follows the natural spectrum of light, both in order of colour and intensity, even up to 2nd and 3rd orders. Then you have what is called "elevation chromatics", depending on the heights of the various devices.

Here is a good site for toned silver: https://www.monstertonedmorgans.com...oned-morgans

I don't have a good reference for toned copper or bronze. I have looked at an awful lot of mint state Canadian bronze, and can recognize mint bag toning in a heartbeat and artificial toning on Canadian small cents usually jumps out at me. There is no pro tip for that though, other than experience with a lot of coins.

That said, nobody, and I mean nobody, can always tell the difference between artificial and natural toning, not even Bob Campbell (the Morgan dollar rainbow toning expert). I have seen experts fooled on toning even when it comes to composition (brass versus bronze versus copper) - that is where my XRF comes in handy.

In my experience, most coin doctors apply their trade to common inexpensive coins in an attempt to greatly increase the value of the coin either by hiding defects or generating exceptional eye appealing toning. I doubt any coin "doctor" in the world would take the risk to tone a MS-65 or higher Canadian coin, in an attempt to increase eye appeal. The risk of ruining the coin's value is much greater than the chance that you get that upgrade from a TPG.

I have seen coins that were previously "dipped to death" get retoned by placing in a window sill for several months or in an older coin envelope behind the furnace trick, but then you open a pandora's box of natural versus artificial toning - is the main criteria intent? Chemistry is chemistry, whether it is gas out of a bottle, or gas in the atmosphere or holder. Is a chemical dip to remove unsightly toning any different? I knew a silver dollar collector who put his 1974-1980 BU silver dollars in those clamshell cases from 1971 to 1973, in order to recreate the toning often seen in those years. Is that considered artificial toning, when we accept the 1971 to 1973 silver dollars as naturally toned?

It boils down to several factors, including eye-appeal. If you love the coin for its toning, does it really matter how it got there? Lastly, there are a ton of threads in CCF on this topic, do a little searching and have fun reading and looking at the images others have posted.

Food for thought...
"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing" --Wernher von Braun

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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Valued Member
Canada
180 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2020  6:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
well...that is impressive.
Valued Member
Canada
180 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2020  8:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How many people actually collected these "monster" toned coins? Some of them are nice to look at but they're a bit...I don't know....clownish or something. By "toned" all I mean is that the way they look reflects they way they've naturally aged out.
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 Posted 04/09/2020  11:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add doubleeagle59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's my opinion that most, if not all toned and brilliant white coins of a certain old age are NOT original.

They, over time, have been toned in a somewhat artificial or 'accelerated' manner and the white coins have been dipped at the very least, a time or two.

The main point is : are they market acceptable.

Quite awhile ago, I had the rare opportunity to view a truly original small collection (not in slabs) of Victorian to KING George V uncirculated coins, mostly 25 cents.

They were all BLACK....but they were all highly brilliant with overpowering luster.

The combination of those two qualities exhibited on the same coin just floored me.

I ask you when have you ever seen an old coin toned almost completely dark (as fine silver does over time) yet, exhibit strong 'booming' luster as if it was just minted yesterday.

It was when I saw these coins that I knew all older coins, whether they are toned or not, slabbed or not, rare or common, have over time been 'played with' in some manner.

Best not to use the term 'original' anymore folks, stop kidding yourself and start thinking more in terms of 'market acceptable'.
Edited by doubleeagle59
04/09/2020 11:14 am
Valued Member
Canada
180 Posts
 Posted 04/09/2020  11:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Put another way, a Toronto area dealer I know once said to me, I think rhetorically, "most things that are 100 years old have been cleaned at least once!"
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