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1803 MO Th 8 Reales - What's Wrong

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 12 / Views: 488Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
United States
4979 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2020  01:16 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Tonight an 8 Reales was posted.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1803-Carol...193502673806

Here are the pictures:

Obverse


Reverse


What is wrong? Is this worth the BIN of $99? Is it real?
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
New Member
United States
35 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2020  06:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add doges to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'll take a shot - the coin has a rim

fake, in other words
Edited by doges
06/07/2020 06:31 am
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United States
860 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2020  11:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add keepcalmandcoinon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Id take a chance on it at around 50-60usd. I've got 8R in similar condition around the same date for that. I've seen that "rim" on other examples and have been told its excess metal being pushed up out of the collar. It looks genuine to me but I'm no expert.

Edit: I just realized swamperbob posted this so I'm assuming it's a fake, but I'm gonna leave my reply so I can be schooled on my ignorance.
Edited by keepcalmandcoinon
06/07/2020 11:58 am
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 Posted 06/07/2020  2:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Spanish colonial 8 reales were never struck in a collar.
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United States
301 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2020  3:23 pm  Show Profile   Check Slightly Lithuanian Zac's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Slightly Lithuanian Zac to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Is this also fake?
the said it's ex-jewlery. 324137872285
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United States
1060 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2020  8:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gincoin43 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Has the edge been filed off and replaced?

So real with a fake edge?
Edited by Gincoin43
06/07/2020 8:14 pm
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United States
4979 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2020  9:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I will reply in order to the comments.

doges You say that the coin has a rim. The problem here is the raised rim seen beyond the dentils on the face of the coin. This is impossible on a collarless screw press.

The dentils at the edge of the coin must run off the actual edge so that any filing to steal silver will be noticed.

The coin is a Numismatic Forgery worth melt only. Most of the examples I have seen of this exact type contain ZERO silver. The coin is basically worthless.

keepcalmandcoinon You say:


Quote:
I've seen that "rim" on other examples and have been told its excess metal being pushed up out of the collar.


The person who told you that is not familiar with the system used in Mexico to strike coins. At this period in time there was no collar at all on the press.

The first development (during the second Republic) was a centering collar which positioned the planchet but did nothing more than that.

The true closed (close) collar appeared very late in the Cap and Ray series and was associated with steam powered presses or other non-manual types.

So if you have seen other Portrait 8 Reales with a raised rim, you most likely have Numismatic Forgeries - not even silver restrikes made for the China Trade. They are all worth melt value no more, even to a collector like myself.

jgenn You say that Portrait 8 Reales were NEVER struck in a collar - that is correct.

Slightly Lithuanian Zac You ask about a specific coin an 1806 Mo TH 8R with a drill hole near top center. That coin is in my opinion genuine (or at least silver). Without seeing the actual edge I can not rule out a silver restrike made outside of Mexico, but since they are still being treated by 99% of people as if they were genuine you would not loose too much value.

In this case the drill hole seems to display some suspension wear at the top of the drill hole but not a great deal. So the coin was suspended but not perfectly upright. When a drill hole occurs on the sides of the coin or the bottom - the reason for suspension might have been that it was a counterfeit and it was placed on a bank teller's loop for future reference.

This is a common date and the price is horrific for the coin pictured. $ 30 or $35 perhaps as a hole filler. Poor investment unless you plan to add a stamp and create a fake rarity. (Which I say only in jest.)

Gincoin43 The edge has not been filed off and replaced. The clues for that kind of a coin start with little or no dentils remaining.

This coin is a Chinese Numismatic Forgery made after 2010. In my records I have a notation of 7 different Chinese sellers using the identical pictures to sell copies of this same coin. It is a non-magnetic white copper struck usually underweight but made on thicker than normal planchets so the weight is higher than 20 grams. The edge design uses a standard colonial edge of alternating circles and rectangles but the edge never looks "correct" if you have viewed any great number of Mexico City mint 8Rs.

While this coin used to be posted by Chinese sellers, it now is posted on eBay by US sellers or Chinese with US addresses.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
New Member
United States
35 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2020  11:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add doges to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Now that the authenticity of the coin has been explained, I have my own coin that I am curious about. I have multiple bust-type coins but the overlaps on this one appear strange to me..



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United States
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 Posted 06/07/2020  11:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
doges In my opinion, what you have is one of the silver counterfeits produced between 1820 and 1930 that were shipped to China to make a profit on the premium the Chinese paid for Carolus 8Rs. Initially these (restrikes) were produced in places like Birmingham, England and the 14% premium more than covered the production and shipment of the coins to China. In the 1850s the Opium Wars reversed the English trade deficit and they largely got out of the trade in counterfeits. The next large producer was the US using silver being produced in Nevada. The Chinese did not like the US Trade dollar preferring the older Carolus Dollars. So US merchants trading with China had silver forgeries made to take advantage of a 25% premium. This topic has been covered previously on this forum.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
New Member
United States
35 Posts
 Posted 06/08/2020  12:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add doges to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for the prompt response & information, much appreciated. I did not know the premium was so significant.
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Australia
13343 Posts
 Posted 06/08/2020  01:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Curious. That "crack" running right round the outer rim of Swamperbob's second picture... I would have called that as evidence of a Magician's coin. The gap between the two half-coins is particularly noticveable at 6'o'clock, below "IND". It even looks like two different-coloured metals on different sides of the line - particularly noticeable at 9 o'clock, just outside of the "8R".
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Czech Republic
779 Posts
 Posted 06/08/2020  08:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TwoKopeiki to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, the first thing that's wrong is that its not an 1803-TH but an 1803-FT/M. Its a upsetting to see a rare over-assayer variety being used as host for numismatic counterfeits.
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United States
4979 Posts
 Posted 06/08/2020  11:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sap The examples I have seen are solid coins struck from copied false dies. Perhaps the looks comes from the way the dies were created.

TwoKopeiki I had missed the T/M, however, that may be why these sold so well. The over assayer is far better than the normal assayer. Perhaps the buyers saw that and didn't look past the rarity of the over assayer.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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