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Papal States Or Something Else?

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 7 / Views: 333Next Topic  
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Germany
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 Posted 08/11/2020  2:01 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Ocra00 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Here is a new interesting coin I just got in my collection: a tiny coin of about 12 mm. It is heavily worn, but I can make out 'PIVS PAPA' on the border.

I figure this inscription along with the cross would probably mean it is a coin from the papal states, could it be possibly Pius II (as the missing part has enough room to say 'SECVNDVS' I think)

Would love to hear your thoughts!


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United States
3726 Posts
 Posted 08/12/2020  4:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, probably Papal States, second possibility Avignon. The inscription is more likely to be a pope's Latin name ending in ...TIUS. So, CLEMENTIVS PAPA or INNOCENTIVS PAPA. If the reverse has an image of St. George slaying the dragon, it might put this coin in the Papal state of Ferrara. Though there is at least one other state which has an image on horseback.

I will do more research later with a better stab at attribution
Edited by tdziemia
08/12/2020 10:45 pm
New Member
Germany
14 Posts
 Posted 08/12/2020  5:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ocra00 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hey, that's really interesting.. I wasn't expecting that it could be saying something else than PIVS.. I'm no expert ofcourse, so I take your word for it.

The reason I came to my conclusion is that (not very well visible in my poor picture) there is what I interpret as a + before PIVS/TIVS part of the coin. I've marked it in the picture below. Could that be a character, an E maybe?

The middle seems to have at least two, but faint contours of (maybe 4) circles inside of what looks like a cross shape.

Anyways, thanks for helping out!

Edited by Ocra00
08/12/2020 5:21 pm
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 Posted 08/12/2020  8:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I missed the cross before PIVS (or similar) in the legend, so You are probably correct. Maybe one of the Pius of the mid-1500s?

I will look in CNI.

Edit: the cross may be more aligned with a papal coin of Comtat Venaissin.
Edited by tdziemia
08/12/2020 10:46 pm
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 Posted 08/13/2020  08:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Generally speaking, I think the design details are consistent with Comtat Venaissin. For instance, there are coins like this with a cross on one side and a papal image on the other (note the pope's staff which could be the long, thin feature on your coin).
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces93758.html
The size of your coin is an issue, but maybe it was clipped from something larger.
If the pope is PIUS, the name could also be followed by QVARTVS or QVINTVS.
SOmeone who has the Boudeau catalog or Poey d'Avant might be able to find it.
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 Posted 08/13/2020  12:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was completely wrong about Comtat Venaissin (sorry! .
Having looked through the section in CNI, I am pretty sure your coin is Papal States/Rome, billon piccolo of Pius II as you thought. The CNI reference is Pius II, #137 (p.261). CNI gives a diameter range of 11-14 mm for most examples.
This gives the obverse legend +PIVS PAPA SECVNDVS (no additional punctuation) with the obverse device a cross made up of 5 intersecting squares each containing a crescent, and reverse legend (not visible on yours) around the cross patente as + ROMA CAPVT MVNDI. It is a type with the obverse of XIV,8 in the picture below and reverse of XIV,9-10.
Sorry for my roundabout thought process! I should have stayed quiet till I found the time to dig into CNI.

Edited by tdziemia
08/13/2020 12:39 pm
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Germany
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 Posted 08/13/2020  2:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ocra00 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Oh wow that's exactly it, Amazing :) thanks a lot, really appreciate your efforts and following your train of thought is also something I can learn a lot from.
Edited by Ocra00
08/13/2020 2:11 pm
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 Posted 08/13/2020  2:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bob L to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well done, Ted.
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