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What Happens To Gold And Silver Next? Look Out Below?

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Pillar of the Community
United States
3789 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2013  11:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yup7676 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Morning folks!

Well well well,,, no surprise here, we continue to go no where lol.. and I must say gold and silver are one of the most boring parts of the markets currently.

As of this morning, we really don't have much going on just your usual range bound trading. The best thing going forward is that this is establishing a range which will eventually be broken, and when it does break, should be an explosive move.

I put the probabilities for the next big move to be to the downside but we'll see. There's a lot of work to be done if this is to run higher, starting first with filling that gap.
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SA4H's Avatar
United States
2764 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2013  5:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SA4H to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I just finished reading this article on numimaster.com and thought to share: http://www.numismaster.com/ta/numis...&rid=2197220

"The Other Run on Physical Gold
By Patrick A. Heller
May 28, 2013


The world's largest gold trading market is conducted in Great Britain under the auspices of the London Bullion Market Association (LBMA). Its volume of trades is many times that of the New York COMEX.

In theory, contracts traded in the London market are deliverable in physical product. However, precious metals analyst Jeffrey Christian of CPM Group testified at a Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) hearing on March 25, 2010, that there are more than 100 ounces of LBMA contracts extant for each ounce of gold in London vaults to cover those contracts.

In other words, the world's largest gold trading market operates to some degree as a Ponzi scheme, where there isn't enough metal to fulfill outstanding contracts. Christian did not consider this to be a problem in his further comments at the CFTC hearings because he acknowledged that this scheme had been practiced for many years and that the LBMA did allow contracts to be fulfilled by cash payment.

Over the past two months there have been growing problems with delivering customers their physical gold. Near the end of March, the large Dutch Bank ABN Amro notified customers who had precious metals stored at the bank that they would not be able to withdraw those assets after April 1. Instead, the only action they could take would be to sell their holdings to receive payment in cash. Then several Swiss banks started to come up with a variety of excuses why customers could not withdraw their gold either at all or only up to a limited quantity.

Ten days ago, the Hong Kong Mercantile Exchange defaulted on delivering physical gold and silver to fulfill contracts, announcing that it would only make settlement for cash, which amounts may not necessarily compensate contract holders for the current value of their "paper" assets.


It has already been documented that since the end of 2001 the London P.M. fix has almost always either been lower than the same day's A.M. fix or at most no more than $5 higher. Overall, since gold closed at $279 on Dec. 31, 2001, the price of gold is almost 400 percent higher. Analyst Adrian Douglas (who also testified at the CFTC hearings on March 25, 2010) calculated the probability that the price of gold would regularly experience a random net decrease between the same day's A.M. and P.M. fixes over this time frame yet have such a huge gain during the rest of the hours of the week. In his computation, he said the chances of this being a random occurrence were so remote that a more likely event would be that the sun would not come up tomorrow.

Keeping this in mind, the activity in London last Wednesday was extraordinary. The A.M. fix was $1,385.25. The P.M. fix jumped to $1,408.50, a highly unusual rise of $23.25 (1.7 percent). Apparently, one firm was so desperate to acquire some quick physical metal that they were willing to pay significantly above market price to obtain it.

Even more shocking were the terms of delivery. Standard LBMA settlement terms are that the physical metal be delivered two days after confirmation of the contract, referred to as T+2. Last Wednesday, virtually all contracts were stated for delivery five business days after confirmation, or T+5.

The two-day delay in delivering metal that is supposed to be in vaults available on an immediate basis was to allow the purchaser time to make payment in good funds. There should be no need for any further delay - if the physical gold really was available for delivery as required by LBMA terms.

That many London gold deliveries are now being delayed another three days should be treated as a major alarm, especially when you factor in the other gold delivery problems over the past two months. Any outright defaults in delivery in London would quickly affect the COMEX, which also has insufficient gold in its vaults to cover open contracts.

Of 28 institutions that publicly report the amount of gold they hold in their vaults (including the COMEX and the TOCOM in Tokyo), physical inventories have declined 17.5 percent since the end of 2012. With declining inventories and delivery delays and prohibitions at banks and exchanges, it is possible that a global run on physical gold has already begun.

------------------------------
Patrick A. Heller is the American Numismatic Association 2012 Harry Forman Numismatic Dealer of the Year Award winner. He owns Liberty Coin Service in Lansing, Mich., and writes "Liberty's Outlook," a monthly newsletter on rare coins and precious metals subjects. Past newsletter issues can be viewed at http://www.libertycoinservice.com. Other commentaries are available at Coin Week (www.coinweek.com and www (040) Not Allowed - Auto-Removedcom). He also writes a bi-monthly column on collectibles for "The Greater Lansing Business Monthly." His radio show "Things You ‘Know' That Just Aren't So, And Important News You Need To Know" can be heard at 8:45 a.m. Wednesday and Friday mornings on 1320-AM WILS in Lansing (which streams live and becomes part of the audio and text archives posted at http://www.1320wils.com.)"

Edited by SA4H
05/29/2013 5:23 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
686 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2013  5:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Westwood Arms to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice thread. I do not understand PM except for the technicals, kind of.

Have some bids out for collectible gold. Failing that we might pick up some 63+ St. Gaudens (pre 1933) or 70 Buffaloes, I do not have an MS 70 in my collection.

There are some really good collectable coins out there which have fallen in price based on PM, not the coin.
Bedrock of the Community
basebal21's Avatar
13014 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2013  7:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Of 28 institutions that publicly report the amount of gold they hold in their vaults (including the COMEX and the TOCOM in Tokyo), physical inventories have declined 17.5 percent since the end of 2012


Also keep in mind that if nothing changed inventory was going to have to be reduced simply from a lower price unless they were going to just sit on the extra
Pillar of the Community
United States
3789 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2013  8:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yup7676 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Westwood makes a good point, something I have noticed in the past weeks via ebay. Many coins with numesmatic value that are gold and silver did drop in price, not drastically, but they did nonetheless. I think this is the area you want to be at.

Looking at gold and silver: another day in the books of trading in a narrow range.

SLV- lower high but no lower low

GLD- lower high but no lower low

So we remain the same, chop, chop and more chop.

The crucial element to this is TIME. The more time passes by, the higher chances of getting some sort of move.

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stewart's Avatar
United States
1126 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2013  8:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add stewart to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
precious metals analyst Jeffrey Christian of CPM Group testified at a Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) hearing on March 25, 2010, that there are more than 100 ounces of LBMA contracts extant for each ounce of gold in London vaults to cover those contracts.

In other words, the world's largest gold trading market operates to some degree as a Ponzi scheme, where there isn't enough metal to fulfill outstanding contracts. Christian did not consider this to be a problem in his further comments at the CFTC hearings because he acknowledged that this scheme had been practiced for many years and that the LBMA did allow contracts to be fulfilled by cash payment.


I remember watching video of that meeting the next day
And realizing at that very moment that Cristian said those
words that I had not been taking metals market manipulation
into my calculations. That mistake was never to be made again. I was stacking well before that, and accelerated
dramatically after that
Realizing that they were leading the world to believe
that there was at least 100 times more metal out there than
there actually was.

The actual video with the words from the mans mouth
If you do not want to watch the whole 5 minutes that changed everything
Start at the 4 minute mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NAL0C6BO-4
Edited by stewart
05/29/2013 8:32 pm
Bedrock of the Community
basebal21's Avatar
13014 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2013  8:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Realizing that they were leading the world to believe
that there was 100 times more metal out there than
there actually was.


There a stock nothing more than a way to profit off of the metals gains and losses. Some people try and use them as an end around to avoid paying premiums that you have to pay even as a direct seller from mints.

Theres no world wide conspiracy thats being kept secret by 1000s of people

Plus if there was why would you invest in something that can be so easily manipulated?

The trends really just following the same path as the 80s drawn out a little more by a lack of leadership
Edited by basebal21
05/29/2013 8:41 pm
Pillar of the Community
stewart's Avatar
United States
1126 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2013  9:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add stewart to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Never said there was a conspiracy,
It was just a statement of the actual operating standards
of a market. That is actually recognized as a ponzi
scheme by Patrick Heller who wrote the article above.

As far as why would I invest in something so easily manipulated?
While watching the inventories for these places be depleted
at an incredible rate lately. And the algorithms can still
smash the price down when Every Fundamental is screaming
that the price should be higher.
How long until another default?

Just like ANB AMRO and the Hong Kong Metals Exchange


It is all good,
Edited by stewart
05/29/2013 9:01 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
3789 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2013  9:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add yup7676 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Boy I wish I had time to break these things down but I just don't.

Look, for ages there have been these rumors and talk circulated about manipulation. BUT, what isn't disclosed is that same people that are talking up these rumors are the SAME people who have a VESTED interest in seeing higher gold and silver prices.

Price action is the strongest most fool proof instrument in determining value. Right now, the fundamentals point to better economic times, no panic in credit markets, and the Federal Reserve is saying that slowly but surely QE is going to get cut down... and interest rates are going UP.

The markets know this, are pricing it in and they will be right. IF, IF the markets knew gold and silver were being held down or if the facts proved otherwise, we would have gold and silver higher. But they are not.

We must accept the market as being the one who has the ultimate say in the matter. The market is saying for now, gold and silver enjoyed some pretty good times and it is now time to move on to other areas to make money.

Bedrock of the Community
basebal21's Avatar
13014 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2013  9:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
And the algorithms can still
smash the price down when Every Fundamental is screaming
that the price should be higher.


An almost two year down trend doesn't support that. Neither does past history. Theres no shortage, we have a surplus in production every year and it doesn't disappear after being mined. Its in stock absolutely everywhere and gold and silver places arent popping up left and right anymore which supports a decreased demand.

Theres no P/E that gold and silver should trade at or earnings that can support it being under valued. Theres far more money to be made in the stock market than PMs which means the big money is staying away which means there wont be huge price increases.

Big money moves in during times of uncertainty. While things are great, they arent uncertain anymore. We can see were not going to collapse so big money doesn't need that safe haven anymore like they did during the depression. If there was a shortage from demand you wouldnt be able to find it anywhere, I can go on any website right now though and buy as much as I want
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stewart's Avatar
United States
1126 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2013  10:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add stewart to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What is the "gold price"? It's the price you pay for a futures contract, or a share of GLD.
The "price of gold" is what you pay to own and hold an ounce of physical gold.
The "gold price" is disconnecting from the "price of gold."

Try Buying an ounce or even a 1/10th ounce for anywhere near
the spot of 1396.00

And the same for Silver.

There would be no disconnect if there was not
a difference between the paper amount of silver and the actual
amount of Silver.
To the tune of at least 100 Paper Claims on each Physical Ounce
of Silver And Gold
Bedrock of the Community
basebal21's Avatar
13014 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2013  10:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Gold and silver both have normal premiums. Youve never in the history of the world been able to buy for exactly spot unless you owned the mine. It costs money to make the coins so you pay some extra for that, then you pay some extra for the middle guy to make some money off it. Theres no disconnect other than the cost of making the product and the seller making money. Theres nothing unusual about the premiums the short term panic gouging is over.

That cost of production is why some people have tried to use the stocks to get physical metal as an end around of the premiums. The difference in price has absolutely nothing to do with the paper amount and amount of silver. Mints dont work for free
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dsfreeworld's Avatar
United States
4337 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2013  10:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dsfreeworld to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
great article
great video
great healthy debate

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stewart's Avatar
United States
1126 Posts
 Posted 05/30/2013  12:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add stewart to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Again to Clarify I do Not Say "At Spot"
I said Near Spot.

Silver at roughly between 3 to 5 and more
and Gold at 50 plus over spot is not Near Spot

Couple of questions before bed

How can true price discovery of Any Commodity take place
when there are at least 100 Paper Contracts claiming ownership
of one of anything. an oz. of Silver,Gold, ton of Copper
Cocoa. Lumber? Plug in what ever you want.
Does this not imply that there is more of something than there
actually is?
This in and of it's self is price manipulation.

And How in the world can JP Morgan hold such a massive concentrated
short position in Silver with out affecting the price
with un-backed paper?

If there was a position as large in oil the CFTC would be
having fits
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basebal21's Avatar
13014 Posts
 Posted 05/30/2013  01:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

Silver at roughly between 3 to 5 and more
and Gold at 50 plus over spot is not Near Spot


Thats where theyve always been though. The mint charges at least a dollar per coin they mint. Then their whole seller does the same. Then the person you can buy from will add their premium. 2 and change is the absolute minimum premium you can expect for a brand new coin if you pay with cash and buy in massive amounts. Otherwise itd be like you selling me dimes for 9 cents so I can turn around and sell them for 10. Nobody does any work if they wont make money.

50 of 1400 is actually a lower premium percentage than 3 dollars out of 24 is. I dont have the slightest clue what the mint charges for the gold bullion but their premium is going to be more than a dollar and probably in the 10 to 20 dollar range to pay for the dyes.

We dont have any gold and silver shortage. They were initially picked because theyre readily available, neither are actually really rare. Theres 2000+ years of them being mined and theyre still being mined and ,ines are still being discovered with no end in sight. Heck theres probably a few trillion dollars of it sitting on the bottom of the ocean alone.

The argument of manipulation is that the prices are somehow being held down by the paper trading. The reality is that while the paper may have sped up the decline, it also propelled the increase and also kept the inflated levels in the 30s longer than we would have had. Demand has to surpass the supply to justify huge spikes, other than a random week here or there its never been hard to find any PMs.

Theres also the argument that they should somehow be at these never before seen levels. Theres nothing to suggest that should be true. The great depression was much worse than this and with inflation gold was much higher but never saw these values in dollar terms at the time, silver didnt do a whole lot then probably because it was money. The 1980s were very similar to now and with inflation gold and silver were actually higher then but still only met the peak high of today. Just like the 1980s after the spike weve been working our way back down which has been dragged out more with investment money jumping in and giving it life in the stock market that the physical market wouldnt have supported according to demand.

Throughout history silver has been a cheap metal with value that can buy things but not something thats value soars to the moon. Golds had periods of inflated value under really bad circumstances, but again not in the 20-50k range like a lot of people say it should be. The metals did exactly what they were supposed to do. They provided a safe haven during an uncertain time and now are being sold off that better money making opportunities are there. Well do something stupid again and theyll go back up but theyll come back down when that ends too. This isn't our first crisis and not even our worst.

Just keep in mind that no one has made more money off PMs than the people who are claiming prices are being suppressed. They all have financial interests in metal prices being high, and have made tons of money with the booming traffic on their web sights ect.

Sorry for the long winded response


Quote:
great healthy debate


Agreed
Edited by basebal21
05/30/2013 01:34 am
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