Wanna See Some Coins? :)

stratocaster Sorry, but I guess you can't copy a link like I tried. If you look at the original list of postings - the 14th entry in the second group is the Maria Theresa - it ends with eum/01-7.

Yes that is the picture I was referring to.

The website you found is one of two really good sites for identification of the MT Thalers. Here is the other which has a bit more detail:

http://www.jdsworld.net/article/m_t...thalers.html

The introduction to the second page of your site explains that many "experts" have a hard time with separating the originals from the restrikes. I think that is what happened here if they classify the coin as 17th or 18th century. It is without any doubt whatsoever a coin produced AFTER 1850.

Take it one simple step at a time. It may seem complex, but it is really very simple.

Look at the Bust - are there pearls around the Brooch on her dress? The only "original" with the S.F. under the Bust has a PLAIN BROOCH.

Second, the Vienna originals always lack initials below the bust. The 1781 Guzenburg strike is a unique coin which falls into a classification of its own. There are no other copies known which date to the 18th century that have the initials S.F. under the bust. But even if you did have the second known Guzenburg copy - it would have a brooch with NO PEARLS.

Next, you must consider that from 1781 to the 1850s, a variety of different initials were used under the bust. These coins were issued while the Thaler was still monetized. These were circulation strikes and are often erroneously called originals. There are really three main groupings of MT Thalers - Originals (Very Rare) Monetized Strikes (Very Rare to Scarce) and Restrikes (Scarce to Very Common).

Finally, the largest group of MT Thalers are the bullion restrikes - classified modern that were produced after 1858 by the millions. These are all VERY similar but there are differences that allow further grouping by date and mint. Some are scarce and there is a collector market for each of the "types". This categorization is tedious. All of these bullion restrikes share a group of distinctive details that are briefly itemized at the end of the second page you cite. The final paragraph on that page says:

Key identification characteristics for the 1780 strikes are in particular the form of the brooche in the veil on the obverse (no pearls, except for the later Vienna mint strike), the form of the letter 'U' in the reverse (AUST.DUX instead of AVST.DUX), the form of the cross next to the the year on the obverse, and the form of the ' 7 ' in the year. Older Vienna mint strikes (earlier than 1850) are signed I.C.-F.A. instead of S.F.

So the restrikes (with a few rare exceptions) can be expected to have:

Restrikes have a Brooch with pearls - the number can vary.
Restrikes read AVST.DUX instead of AUST.DUX
Restrikes have S.F. under the bust
Restrikes have a pointed top A instead of a Flat Topped A.

Hope that helps - by the way - the original picture does not really allow me to determine which of the restrike varieties this coin belongs to.

RenaL - Now it is getting really interesting. The enlarged pictures are great.

Did you notice that the Reverse coin has a reverse signature? T.S. I.F. located above the tail plumes and below the claws - Two letters on each side. These letters are in fact associated with the Guzenburg issues of the late 1700s but all known copies have NO obverse signature (S.F.) and the X should be followed by a period. .X.

One fact I had here-to-fore failed to appreciate is that this is actually two different coins (I can be thick at times . So what we see here is Two different coins - one displaying the obverse and a second displaying the reverse. My presumption is that the reverse may actually be missing the S.F. (otherwise it is a counterfeit). However, since there is no period after the X - it is either a new sub-variety (an important one) or a counterfeit. Either way that coin should be further examined by a specialist in the type and should be published.

The obverse seems to be an early restrike but clearly post 1858.

It would be very interesting to see both sides.

This does illustrate the difficulty that is often faced with early varieties - new types are actually out there and need to be documented. That second coin could be a VERY RARE one.

RenaL, after these photos it is possible that you would be on the black list of security museum like suspect ! LOL