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What's The Deal With Platinum?

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Ed_B's Avatar
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 Posted 09/30/2011  12:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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I just looked and it seems that platinum is going for around 10% less then gold? Does anyone have an idea why it is doing that? I have never seen the like.

Yes, this has happened once before but it is a very rare event. Platinum is used in industry, so when industry slows, the demand for it also drops. As the demand drops, so does the price. This is a red flag warning of a recession. It is also an excellent time to buy platinum. Look at the on-line metals dealers and you will see that a lot of their usual platinum products are sold out or delayed. The price is really good but it is difficult to find any that you can actually buy. I know because I am shopping for some.

There is a physical platinum ETF, PPLT, that I might give a shot instead. I would rather have physical platinum in my hands but it is difficult to get right now. Even when you do find some, the price is considerably higher than the official spot price.
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Ed_B's Avatar
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 Posted 09/30/2011  12:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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"Sponge" form resembles a powder. It is "sponge-like" at a microscopic level, and is usually made by chemically reducing a compound of the metal. Sponge form allows metals that cannot be easily shaped in solid form, such as platinum, to be shaped then compressed to form the solid metal in situ. The blanks for platinum coins, for example, are typically made by compressing platinum sponge into a disc.

Sponge forms of various metals are most often made by blending aluminum with another metal, casting it into ingots, grinding it to a granular consistency, and then leaching some of the aluminum out of the combined metal with aqueous sodium hydroxide. Partial leeching creates many voids in the metal particles that look just like the voids in a natural sponge. The sponge metal is then water washed a few times to remove most of the caustic soda and stored in metal cans under water. Most of them are quite pyrophoric and will spontaneously burst into flame if allowed to become dry in air. Raney nickel is a good example of such sponge metal forms.
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biggfredd's Avatar
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 Posted 10/08/2011  12:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Pt rarely stays cheaper than gold. Best bet is to sell a few contracts of gold and buy an equal amount of Pt.

Pretty sure Palladiumonly works on diesel. Can't imagine them using something that costs twice as much if they didn't have to.
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Ed_B's Avatar
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 Posted 10/08/2011  8:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Palladium and platinum are routinely used as catalysts in pollution clean-up devices, such as catalytic converters but also for LARGE industrial converters such as might be used on industrial incinerators or coal / oil fired power plants. Additionally, the chemical and oil refining industries use quite a lot of both of these as catalysts for various chemical reactions, including reformulated gasoline.

I'm thinking that a lot of people are assuming that the US economy is sliding into recession and that this will cause the various industries that use these metals to buy less of them. With less demand, the price would likely drop. I'm not convinced that this is happening. It could but the signs that favor it seem to be fairly weak at the moment. The recent up-tick in employment, for example, does not signal a recession at this point.
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 Posted 10/08/2011  8:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mmerlinn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The recent uptick in employment is not enough to sop up new workers due to population growth. Adjust for population growth, and employment is getting worse even though the numbers APPEAR to show improvement.
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biggfredd's Avatar
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 Posted 10/08/2011  9:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Figures don't lie, but liars figure.
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Ed_B's Avatar
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 Posted 10/09/2011  7:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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Figures don't lie, but liars figure.

Indeed so, Fredd... and many of them use their own invented numbers in an attempt to add credibility to their bullogna. I just wish that the media would stop parroting the government and Fed figures for inflation and unemployment. Both are considerably misstated. Yes, that would require them to actually do a little work but it would certainly make for an interesting news story... for once.


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chris beatie's Avatar
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 Posted 10/11/2011  5:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chris beatie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I still think Silver is a way better buy for long term future investments over all the common PMs. Within 4-10 years the dry up will happen. Its not JUST a wealth storage it is one of the most necessary metals of the modern world. Its industrial, technological and astrophysical properties are unrivaled. You can not build modern space ships with out silver. Its antiseptic uses, its electro-conductivity, solar panels need it... without silver the world and the future would be drastically different.

Gold is nice, I dont think it will lose its value in the eyes of the world in my lifetime. However silver is not only a shiny pretty metal, its a invaluable one whos supply lessens every day.
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Ed_B's Avatar
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 Posted 10/11/2011  5:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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The recent uptick in employment is not enough to sop up new workers due to population growth. Adjust for population growth, and employment is getting worse even though the numbers APPEAR to show improvement.

Agreed. Additionally, the recent 100,000+ "improvement" in employment included 45,000 striking Verizon employees who were returning to work after progress was made with their new contract.

Events like this resemble the "strength" in the US stock market. Yes, the market often appears stronger when denominated in weak US dollars but not when denominated in much stronger ounces of gold.
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Ed_B's Avatar
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 Posted 10/11/2011  5:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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Within 4-10 years the dry up will happen.

All natural resources are subject to this. Realistically, there is only so much of each resource available to us on this planet. At some point, we will consume all that is easily and cheaply available to us. I believe that we may very well be approaching that point now and over the next 5-10 years. Once we have exploited all that is easily and cheaply available, we will need to find new supplies that are not so cheap or easy to develop. This likely means digging MUCH deeper mines, mining the sea bed, or even tunneling beneath the sea to find and extract the resources we need. Further out in time, we will be mining the moon and perhaps even the asteroid belt for the minerals we need. While all of these alternative production methods seem possible, none of them will be cheap. Because of this, we can expect some very large increases in the prices of many of these elements.

Sea water itself contains quite a lot of elements that are of importance to us. Unfortunately, these are very dilute so we would have to handle very large volumes of water in order to collect these resources.

While this is possible, it is likely that we would need to use huge amounts of electricity for these processes. For that to be economical, we would very likely need to develop commercial nuclear fusion. We will need fusion anyway, so it isn't as if it is a single use development. The amounts of coal, oil, and gas on this planet are very large but also finite. They WILL run out someday and we cannot wait until that happens to develop suitable alternatives.
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chris beatie's Avatar
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 Posted 10/11/2011  5:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chris beatie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Agreed Eddy B, on everything you just said. Furthermore on specifically silver at the current rate of consumption which grows exponentially with new technologies and more population. We really should see it happen in 3-4 years but I feel its effects wont really be hard hitting and noticed for 1-2 years after.

Now as you pointed out us humans will resort to mining more enthusiastically which will have much larger cost to production ratios. However sense that dry season is approaching within years and there at least as far as I know is not major mining operations getting set up to try to offset the imbalance. It would seem that major mining operations will not take place until the dry up happens. So in turn this will create a year or two possibly 3 span where silver gos into hyper demand.

Much as if a bunch of billionaires are all stranded in the desert dieing of thirst and there is one canteen full of water left for them to bid on, silver too will be the metal the world will seek to gulp down, thirsty and starving for every drop available it will finally break free of its confides and it will finally be known to be worth what it really should have been sense the early 30s. The metal of a new millennium.
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biggfredd's Avatar
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 Posted 10/11/2011  11:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
With all the talk of alternative energy sources, I don't recall ever seeing anyone talk about what could be a major drawback.

We know that matter can neither be created nor destroyed. By extension, the same is true of energy, which is simply another form of matter.

When we talk about "green" and "renewable" energy sources, we're changing the biosphere, though no one ever mentions that. For example, if we use wind to create electric, we're slowing down the wind to power the windmills. Ditto using tides for electric.

Solar power? The heat and light absorbed by solar cells used to be absorbed by the earth. Geothermal removes heat from the earth and adds it to the atmosphere.

In the old days, fans provided enough cooling to get by. Today, when cities of millions of people use AC to cool buildings by 10-30°, that heat is pushed outside, making it even more necessary to have AC. In addition, both the AC and electric generated to run them add waste heat.

I don't see anyone looking into these changes.
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junior e's Avatar
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 Posted 10/12/2011  08:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add junior e to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I read, on the net of course, that more and more auto companies are not using Platinum for gas burning engines. I don't know if they are using Palladium or what to substzitute. The main use for Platinum is for diesel catalytic converters, but more car buyers in Europe are buying diesel cars to save money on fuel.
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nod2003's Avatar
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 Posted 10/12/2011  10:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nod2003 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Humans use about 18TW of energy directly. The earth absorbs 89 Peta watts. That means that if we replaced all energy on earth with solar, we would use a massive 0.02% of the incoming energy. I expect that would have next to 0 impact on the earth. Especially since the earth's surface already reflects about 8%
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Ed_B's Avatar
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 Posted 10/12/2011  7:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
We know that matter can neither be created nor destroyed.

I guess that would depend on your definition of "destroyed". In a nuclear blast, for example, several grams of matter are totally annihilated... as in completely converted into energy. That matter no longer exists as matter, so that should qualify as "destroyed". This is the effect summed up by: e = mc^2, where m is the mass converted into energy.


Quote:
When we talk about "green" and "renewable" energy sources, we're changing the biosphere, though no one ever mentions that.

Exactly so, Fredd. And no one ever will question it either because green energy is part of a leftist religious cult. Because it is a sacred religion to some, it cannot (and, indeed MUST not) be questioned. An excellent example of this is that a typical geo-thermal energy plant produces dozens of times more radioactive contamination of the biosphere via radon emissions than does a well maintained and efficiently operated new design nuclear power plant. But... if that nuclear plant should emit the SAME amount of radiation as the geo-thermal plant for any reason, all manner of hysteria will break out. Clearly, the amount of radiation released into the environment is the same in this example. The only difference is that one comes from Mother Earth, which makes it acceptable, and the other comes from a human built machine, which makes it unacceptable. Yes, lapses in logic such as this are very common with cults and their beliefs.
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