Coin Community Family of Web Sites
Coin Community Forum
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

Ike Fans: Check out the first of my weekly CoinWeek columns.

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
United States
1297 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2012  12:33 pm Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add cc99999 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

Those that follow any of my posts may know that I'm writing a book (or two) about coins. The folks at CoinWeek have been so kind as to let me blow off some steam on topics outside of the scope of my current project(s) with a weekly column. I'll focus mostly on moderns and commemoratives- but don't be surprised to see me take on some sacred cows.

This week I talk about Ikes and the types of market mis-information that hurt the series and endanger clad coins in general.

Please check it out, leave me some comments, and let me know how I did!

http://www.coinweek.com/news/coin-g...-everything/

Follow the Ike Group on facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/T...794568128572
Pillar of the Community
United States
2277 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2012  1:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wquinn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very nice article. I think another reason any clad coin isn't popular, especially pre 1998, is of the very plain and boring designs. Even the Ike coin, for its size is so plain. They could have made a much better design. If you look at the standing and Seated Liberty coins, the way they look at you, it looks more realistic, rather than these ancient designs we have on most US coins the past 50+ years.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1297 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2012  1:50 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cc99999 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I know what you are saying about design. But you have to study the coins you have not the ones you wish you had. I think another thing to consider is that there was a purpose, I think, to making unattractive coins. I think the government really wanted to put a stop to the coin hobby- at least with circulating issues.
Follow the Ike Group on facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/T...794568128572
Moderator
Learn More...
United States
21618 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2012  2:25 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Excellent article.

I am not just saying that because it is about the Eisenhower dollar.


Quote:
It stands today as the greatest achievement in clad coinage in U.S. history. It was the most technically challenging coin ever attempted (sorry, Saint Gaudens; your 1907 Double Eagle was spectacular, but try to churn out eighty million Eisenhower dollars on Army surplus presses)...
My favourite part.
Jbuck! ... Coin Collector since 1978 ... Learn more about my current avatar and my previous one.

Did you know that our members sell on eBay? Click Here to see CCF member eBay Sales!

Did you know that there is a better way to search eBay for the coins you want? Click Here for the CCF eBay Search Engine!
Pillar of the Community
United States
1635 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2012  4:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add M0nks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
very informative article I enjoyed reading it
Pillar of the Community
United States
1082 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2012  4:30 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cladking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Superb article! Kudos, and keep upthe great work.

I've read every book and article written probably and this is no doubt among the few finest. Thanks.


Quote:

Likewise, the time will come, and sooner than you think, when future generations look back at the dawn of the clad era and wonder why gem and gem+ coins from this period aren't readily available. And when that day comes they will look at us, the supposed stewards of America's numismatic heritage, and see how we failed them.


This is a concept I've been trying to relate for decades now (28 years). We have done a simply abysmal job of saving any modern coins for future collectors. Many people seem to have the attitude that they could just let Cladking do it but finding rare coins is hard work and all I've got is a few coins I've lucked into. Sure I have things like a choice gem '82-P quarter or a partial roll of 1969 Russian 5k but for every coin I've found there are a dozen for which I've never found a single example. I'm as lazy as the next guy in many cases so depending on me was a foolish plan.

In the mid-'90's ALL the price guides just listed every moderns as junk and merely updated the new issues each year. In those days even Madison Avenue invariably showed an old silver coin in display, television, and other advertising. I wrote dozens of letters to various outfits just to get them to try to reflect a world no longer lodged in 1964. They finally updated the guides but there have been almost no changes since. You're quite right that these low prices are editorial policy. There are numerous reasons but they all get back to the authors' beliefs in what is valuable and what isn't rather than actual market prices for the coins. Most people would be surprised to know what many world coins are actually trading for and US coins can also be far higher than most believe.

I think the next increase willbe much easier to get instilled since modern bashing is much less a factor than it was 15 years ago ansd most of the catalogers are just waiting for an excuse to raise prices now. Red Book's treatment of Ikes is surprising.
Time don't fly, it bounds and leaps.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1082 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2012  4:50 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cladking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I didn't buy a RedBook from 1964 until a few years ago when they finally adjusted the prices on moderns.

I won't buy another or recommend it until it's updated again.

I'm hoping for some improvement this year and even was able to draft a list of the errors in the book. No one asked me about errors in pricing though and there are many of these.
Time don't fly, it bounds and leaps.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
758 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2012  5:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ArrowsAndRays to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The Eisenhower dollar was a noble failure.

Well, I dunno about 'noble'.

Quote:
In this respect, it truly is a perfect collectible coin.

Secret Santa!
Upgrading my 7070 never ends!
Valued Member
United States
245 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2012  5:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ljenkins990 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I certainly understand that there needs to be a set of intelligent and universally-accepted grading standards for modern clads to protect the hobby from the unscrupulous and make sure that those who desire a given grade of coin are able to get it for a fair and reasonable price. But, I don't think that such a system has to mean that the millions of Ikes out there that have circulated and show it are any less collectible than those that haven't.

My set of Ikes was mostly pulled from circulation (except for my 1973s and my proofs of course) and I doubt any of them would be graded any higher than AU-55 or so if they were to be sent in to a grading service. Nevertheless, it's a complete set and as far as I am concerned it is just as valid a set of Ikes as any other. Many may not agree. But I had fun putting it together and it has meaning to me. Sure, my set may not have as high a resale value as some, but since I am never going to sell it anyway, who cares?
Pillar of the Community
United States
1297 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2012  5:42 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cc99999 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ljenkins990

You make a valid point. Many collectors collect circulated coins- and that has always been a strong part of the history of the hobby. I'm not trying to take away from your enjoyment of your set. What I am trying to say, however, is that I don't believe that you buy the Red Book every year and look up you AU Ikes to see if they've appreciated in value.

Let's face it, the makers of the most popular coin guide have made an editorial decision that MS-65 coins in that series are not worth covering- despite the face that there is a market for it- and that these coins trade for 10, 20, 30 times or more the price of MS-63 coins.

If MS-65 was an esoteric grade then the argument that the Red Book is trying to be comprehensive and cover as many series with as much detail as possible and didn't have enough time or resources to follow Ikes at that level- then I'd get it. But MS-65 is accepted as the GEM state and has been for the better part of 30 years.

Furthermore, fewer people will respect coins in a series when there is no perception of value. Let's say for instance that you do have a gem 1971 coin. The Red Book tells you that in MS-63 that it is worth $7. But what you have isn't an MS-63 it's an MS-65. It is a PQ rare coin for the series. It is a coin that trades every day for $160- $200 bucks. Would you do everything in your power to preserve the condition of that coin if you thought it was only worth seven bucks? Would you search out more just like it? If you knew it was a $150 coin?

These editorial decisions effect the way we view these series and the way we collect. If you like moderns- you should be cherry picking the heck out everything you can get your hands on. Your 1909 S VDB is tucked away in a BU roll or a white mint envelope. GEMS in modern series will GEMS in numismatics 50 years from now.

c
Follow the Ike Group on facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/T...794568128572
Pillar of the Community
United States
1082 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2012  7:15 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add cladking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I suspect that Ikes and most moderns are tough enough to find in attractive condition that even AU's will get some attention in the future. Many of these coins can be hard to find well struck with good dies in any condition and then there are always the varieties.
Time don't fly, it bounds and leaps.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1076 Posts
 Posted 03/22/2012  08:58 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add stewart to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Charles,

Excellent Article,

You make some very valid points in the area of the Moderns and the way they are represented to the public and numismatic community at large. The Red Book being the first book that most collectors start out with when they begin collecting. And the public when coins are left to them by family members when they want to get an idea of value of a collection they have received.
I have on more than one occasion, with beginning local collectors or friends and family gotten visits about coins. As I am sure everyone on this forum has
And they would show me a coin that I would recognize as something kind of special Like a coin that would go MS66 or 67 and they would say "But That Was Not In The Red Book I Just Bought, I thought that was the top Book When It Came To Coins"
Then I would have to pull up actual completed sale on a auction site or eBay and show them that the coin is worth a Bit more than what they thought



As those who know me. I have been known to go on a bit of a rant from time to time at the way Moderns and Ike's particularly are not just ignored by
The Powers That Be in the numismatic world, which I do not mind all that much. Allows me to find them less expensively for now. But the actual intentional dis-regarding despite enormous amounts of proof and attributions from some of the top people in the field of numismatics of Major discoveries in not only the Eisenhower series for example the 1971-D FEV with completely different reverse characteristics and no less that 10 naked eye die markers. Which was discovered quite a few years ago. And only in the last few months has the Big TPG's even began to attribute it. But also with the Type "M" reverse Washington quarter that still to this day very few people know about. There are many more but here I am
You Got Me Ranting Again

The article did my heart good to see these discrepancies in our hobby being addressed in a major publication. And your work is deeply appreciated.

Terry

Edited by stewart
03/22/2012 09:01 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
2277 Posts
 Posted 03/22/2012  1:22 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add wquinn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

I know what you are saying about design. But you have to study the coins you have not the ones you wish you had. I think another thing to consider is that there was a purpose, I think, to making unattractive coins. I think the government really wanted to put a stop to the coin hobby- at least with circulating issues.


And by ancient design, I don't mean old, but thousands of years old. Look at ancient coins and you'll see the same 2 dimensional design.

And I'm not talking about the coins I don't have, but about the coins that we currently have. I was comparing to the 3 dimensional designs of the 1800s to the 2 dimensional designs of today. A huge difference.

What you say would only make sense if the coins were designed in the 1960s, but most were designed well before then. I could see your argument on why they don't want to change the obverse design though, but they did it recently for the nickel and dollar coins. Why those 2 and no others? So it doesn't make sense there either.

When they started the state quarter design in 1998, they messed up big time, by not making a nicer portrait of George.

I just think the main reason we have the designs we do is, because the US Mint doesn't care. They only do what they are told and don't want to be bothered with making things better. That's why they haven't changed the composition of the cent and nickel yet.

Until the past year or so, they were told to look at other compositions to reduce cost. Otherwise they would have done nothing. They do create an annual report and if no one analyzes it from the US Treasury or Congress, then nothing will be done to change anything.

Our government isn't proactive at all. They only react to things that have already happened and for quite some time too.
Edited by wquinn
03/22/2012 1:28 pm
Moderator
Learn More...
United States
21618 Posts
 Posted 03/22/2012  4:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
...even AU's will get some attention in the future.
I suppose there is hope for my collection yet.

Quote:
When they started the state quarter design in 1998, they messed up big time, by not making a nicer portrait of George.
I agree, a missed opportunity... twice (they could have done something more with the ATB series other than just removing the spaghetti hair).
Jbuck! ... Coin Collector since 1978 ... Learn more about my current avatar and my previous one.

Did you know that our members sell on eBay? Click Here to see CCF member eBay Sales!

Did you know that there is a better way to search eBay for the coins you want? Click Here for the CCF eBay Search Engine!
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
SWCoins - We Love CoinsSELECTED Modern WORLD Coins with LOW MintageAmerican Silver Eagles only $2.49 over Spot!CoinSniper.com is the numismatic penny auction.Coins Commemorating the 2014 Sochi Winter Olympic Games
Coin Community Member eBay Sales - Only CCF Members Included Here
Ending Soon   Newly Listed   Lowest Price   Highest Price  
Certified Coins   Certified VAMs   Certified Errors  
New Forum Topics Recently Active Forum Topics




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2014 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use
Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2014 Coin Community Forums Go To Top Of Page
It took 5.02 seconds to rattle this change. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05