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 Replies: 18 / Views: 3,353 |
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Valued Member
United States
320 Posts |
The grading services are there to enforce a certain standard. Seems to me that your issue would be with the standard, not with the company.
More later, my thoughts are percolating on the remainder of this.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3540 Posts |
I avoid toned coins like the plague. Toning means there is an issue with the surface. The surface is reacting with from something external. In my opinion, toning DOES hide problems. No different than a carbon or milk spot. The coin has a problem....and it will get worse with time...even in a TPG capsule. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10038 Posts |
So why not still grade the coins but put a big, bold CLEANED in front of the grade (based on wear as they used to do in the old days - such as "full LIBERTY must show"). That way they also might make a second market for their business.
Just like an MS69 will not sell for as much as an MS70, a coin with a "CLEANED" label would go for less. Hey - how about making the label an entirely, unique, different color? A CLEANED (colored) label XF 09 VDBS LMS would not sell for as much as a normal XF 09 VDBS LCM and be instantly recognizable as such by the different color.
I am ignorant on slabbed coins for the most part - so maybe I am talking nonsense?
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Valued Member
United States
309 Posts |
Totally agree. Not a fan of TPG's in any form. How many coins have we seen that are high grade because they were submitted in bulk and for these TPG's to keep that level of repeat business, grade higer for those bulk submissions. I've got some graded "first strike" coins that are nowhere near what they should be. Authenticate the coin and leave the grading to me. Thank you TPG's. |
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Pillar of the Community
1028 Posts |
Quote:It's not the TPG's. The overwhelming body of numismatists, collectors like you and I, feel that cleaning a coin at any point during its' life diminishes its' value, and we're willing to pay more for an original coin. I know I am. This is the best post of the thread and one I agree with. Generally, I think the job of a TPG is to authenticate the coin AND its originality. Then as a bonus provide their interpretation of a grade. As my quoted comment above states, collectors have overwhelmingly decided that they want notification of whether or not a coin has been cleaned. I personally believe a cleaned coin should be slabbed (with proper notification), but to grade a "details cleaned" coin the same as a "details uncleaned" is preposterous and your analogies are inappropriate. Go with ANACS, they grade cleaned coins, but they let you know its cleaned. To the OP; There were many different statements and accusations being made in your post and I got the impression that none of it was entirely sincere and you came off as just bitter about your most recent submissions coming back un-slabbed. Edited by hesgut
11/18/2011 8:28 pm
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Valued Member
United States
320 Posts |
So, on the subject of works of art versus coins- Works of art are restored by teams of people who have apprenticed for this task and have many many hours invested in each restoration. Coins are cleaned with the swish of a cloth. Works of art are restored after hundreds of years of environmental damage. Coins...maybe, but a Walking Liberty half is still a babe in arms in comparison. I'd wager your submission is in the same boat, chronologically speaking. With works of art the idea is to painstakingly keep as much of the original piece as is possible. It is usually not so much for restoration as it is preservation for the future and the common good. With coins, the idea is to make it look better than it really is, often for a profit. And last with works of art there is exactly one of them and if you allow it to stay dirty it will degrade it and...that's it. There is no more. with coins there are usually millions of them, or even thousands, or even dozens. It doesn't matter. When there are multiples it changes the game considerably. So, no. The comparison is not valid. |
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
A TPG will do what a TPG does. I agree with the original premise. I am also happy to pay more for a coin that has not been interfered with. However, some coins NEED to be cleaned to be marketable. That applies to some ancients that have been freshly dug up, and to some shipwreck coins. Some TPG's won't grade ancients. I certainly see the value in the authentication of a graded coin. If a coin has not received a grade because it has been cleaned, I see an even greater possibility to buy it, because there is more scope for negotiation on the price. |
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Valued Member
 United States
59 Posts |
Am I 'bitter' asks hesgut? I think that may be a bit strong. I felt that I needed to state upfront that I was not happy with the lack of a grade...if it was not already obvious by the content. Obviously too, I believe in the grading process... but the bottom line is that being contingent on something so illusive as dust accumulated around the lettering,(thus proving that it was dusted elsewhere? Seems a bit thin. I will show you what I mean in my next posting ...but I have to run. Thanks all.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Quote:Works of art are restored by teams of people who have apprenticed for this task and have many many hours invested in each restoration. Coins are cleaned with the swish of a cloth. Works of art are restored after hundreds of years of environmental damage. Coins...maybe, but a Walking Liberty half is still a babe in arms in comparison. I'd wager your submission is in the same boat, chronologically speaking. With works of art the idea is to painstakingly keep as much of the original piece as is possible. It is usually not so much for restoration as it is preservation for the future and the common good. With coins, the idea is to make it look better than it really is, often for a profit. And last with works of art there is exactly one of them and if you allow it to stay dirty it will degrade it and...that's it. There is no more. with coins there are usually millions of them, or even thousands, or even dozens. It doesn't matter. When there are multiples it changes the game considerably. So, no. The comparison is not valid. Not to start an argument but as an example of people with masses amounts of experiences with old restorations, when my Son was at the you of Krakow, they had college kids help with the restoration of old castles. Inbetween parties of course. Although with coins it is true that there are not only one, except in some instances, like a work of art. In many instances although many were made, few if any are left. And with some coins, Large Cents for an example, there are many of only a few or just one. And I'm sure if you ask those into really old coins, they too would say many are Unique and also a sort of work of art. Kind of the opposite of your story. On an opposite note about toned coins. I sort of wish people wouldn't mention them. With the Mint becoming sort of like most organizations that have a tendency to over kill, I would suspect the next thing our Mint will do is start selling Toned coins they make themselves.  |
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New Member
Mexico
22 Posts |
Quite a diverse set of thoughts on this subject. Most Ancient coins have been cleaned and as such, are gradeable by both NGC and Anacs. I have no issues with the opinions in this thread. But I do have issues with the TPG's who are not consistant in their grading principles. I have a rather large collection of Central American Republic coins and some are graded AU58 that have obvious cleaning hairlines but have not been rejected. I have sent in others better than those and they come back with 'HAIRLINES'. Go figure! |
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Valued Member
Australia
243 Posts |
TPG's should be used just to authenticate a coin. Grading is too subjective and based on personal opinion - as the old saying goes "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". As a collector and not an investor, I would never get any of my coins slabbed because I hate the whole idea of the coin being sealed into a case.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Quote:
TPG's should be used just to authenticate a coin. Grading is too subjective and based on personal opinion - as the old saying goes "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". As a collector and not an investor, I would never get any of my coins slabbed because I hate the whole idea of the coin being sealed into a case. AND your far from the only one thinking like that but then too, one of the great things about this hobby is so many differences in the aspects of coin collecting. I too hate slabs, have none, don't want any, however, on the other side of the coin, so to speak, there are many with masses amounts of slabbed coins. There is no right nor wrong way to be a Numismatist. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
TPA, which ANACS originated on today's volume, is needed. TPG has so many flaws that it was doomed from the start. The argument was that a TPG coin can be traded sight unseen. Coins are unique, so that will never work. They tried to make it work in several ways: - refusal to grade anything but a "textbook" example, in effect saying coins were either "slobbable" or "worthless".
- once they ran out of "textbook" examples, they realized they needed more potential inventory, and that a genuine coin doesn't go from $1000 > worthless because of an imperfection.
- then they tried "market grading", which says "this au58 should bring a ms63 price, so it just became a ms63". The problem is, few buyers can agree on which au58 coins should be worth ms63 money. Worse, if the popularity of toning (for example) changes, you can end up with an au58 in an ms63 slob, which is now worth xf40 money.
The purpose of grading is to communicate the appearance in shorthand to some who can't see the item. If you have it in your fat furry paws, that's the grade; it looks exactly like what it looks like. The solution is what the majority in this thread have suggested (and I pointed out decades ago): TPA and people learn how to grade for themselves (commonly known as "buy the coin, not the plastic"). |
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Valued Member
United States
59 Posts |
I really appreciate all the thoughts and discussions on this subject of grading. I will have to rethink my objections. I still find that the toning aspect is a bit tricky..on account of how easy it would be to forge. I totally get that a grubby coin that has passed from hand to hand embodies something like its history. but coins that have been sitting in a lousy piece of plastic and assumes a pattern like seeing Jesus in a piece of toast, should not be the business of 3rd party evaluation. God bless to the delusional chap who sees Jesus in the toast and wants to pay more for it.
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
I've always found it interesting that no one knows what Jesus looked like until they see him in a moldy piece of cheesecake, then they know exactly.
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Replies: 18 / Views: 3,353 |
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Posted 11/18/2011 6:46 pm
