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Pillar of the Community
United States
4421 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2012  9:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list
My avatar is a counterstamped coin. The issuer, Lemuel Pomeroy, was a gunsmith in the early 1800's, and the marks match those on the firearms he made in 1826. He worked in Pittsfield, Mass. A half dozen coins or so, having his marks, are recorded in reference books. These coins may have been stamped to confirm the marks on his guns.

One of the more unusual reasons for stamping coins was to mark them in case of theft. This was done by some early collectors or those who simply hid their coins. Take my avatar coin for example. Were it to be stolen, it would be quite traceable should it enter the collector marketplace. Having a few, virtually unique coins in one's collection nowadays certainly can't hurt.
Valued Member
United States
318 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2012  10:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cajunlady0 to your friends list
I guess I could stamp about 100 nickels, just for fun. I would want a "fleur-de-lis" stamp to do them with. Then see if any come back to me in my lifetime. Too bad I can not put a small note on the coins (like a message in a bottle) where it reads to call me at this phone number "if anyone can read this note on this coin". That would be great as a little tracking device of some sort.
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Australia
16867 Posts
 Posted 01/23/2012  06:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list

Quote:
Too bad I can not put a small note on the coins (like a message in a bottle) where it reads to call me at this phone number "if anyone can read this note on this coin". That would be great as a little tracking device of some sort.

That's a temptation I would avoid if I were you. Americans are legally allowed to abuse their coins in a surprising number of ways, but placing advertisements on them and putting them back in circulation is one of the few ways that are prohibited. 18 USC section 475. I wouldn't want a bored federal agent to find one of your coins and decide to give you a rather unpleasant phone call.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Pillar of the Community
United States
4421 Posts
 Posted 01/23/2012  12:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list
Sap wrote:


Quote:
Americans are legally allowed to abuse their coins in a surprising number of ways, but placing advertisements on them and putting them back in circulation is one of the few ways that are prohibited. 18 USC section 475.


IMHO, it doesn't appear that this law applies to the act of stamping advertising upon existing, genuine coinage. It appears to target forms of imitation currency; advertising that, in and of itself, bears a likeness to currency.

Any lawyers out there?
Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts
 Posted 01/23/2012  2:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list
I do not know how the Treasury would treat coins counterstamped for advertising purposes but they did throw a fit a few years ago in a similar scenario. In 2005, 20th Century Fox, along with the Franklin Mint, released 40,000 California quarters with a sticker application that advertised the premiere of Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer. The promotion ended when Franklin Mint was issued a Cease and Desist order.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4421 Posts
 Posted 01/23/2012  2:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list
Interesting parallel, biochemist6.

Here's an article about that argument:

http://www.numismaticnews.net/artic...bited_by_law

It's an argument that has yet to be tested in court ...
Valued Member
United States
286 Posts
 Posted 01/23/2012  3:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add asimpson91 to your friends list
lets try it
Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 01/23/2012  7:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list

Quote:
IMHO, it doesn't appear that this law applies to the act of stamping advertising upon existing, genuine coinage. It appears to target forms of imitation currency; advertising that, in and of itself, bears a likeness to currency.

The first part prohibits making advertisments, cards etc on imitations of Government securities


Quote:
Whoever designs, engraves, prints, makes, or executes, or utters, issues, distributes, circulates, or uses any business or professional card, notice, placard, circular, handbill, or advertisement in the likeness or similitude of any obligation or security of the United States issued under or authorized by any Act of Congress


Then you get the second part with that big ol OR at the beginning.


Quote:
or writes, prints, or otherwise impresses upon or attaches to any such instrument, obligation, or security, or any coin of the United States, any business or professional card, notice, or advertisement, or any notice or advertisement whatever, shall be fined under this title.

That OR indicates that this portion of the law can stand on its own (you can get in trouble for violating either the first part OR the second part) and it clearly relates to advertisements on genuine US currency or coins.
Edited by Conder101
01/23/2012 7:55 pm
Valued Member
474 Posts
 Posted 01/23/2012  11:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FlipOfACoin to your friends list
Does that mean the 1 dollar or 5 dollar notes we see from time to time that are stamped "Track this bill online at "blahblahblah.com" are in violation of the aforementioned law? Just wondering...
Valued Member
United States
168 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2012  09:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add clary1265 to your friends list
Is it illegal to have these coins even though you had nothing to do with the advertising on them? Just curious, I refuse to go to jail over a penny with something stamped on it!
Pillar of the Community
United States
4421 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2012  10:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list
Are we to now believe that all all those counterstamped coins, love tokens, hobo nickels, coin jewelery items, sticker dollars, etc., etc., are illegal? I seriously doubt it. The law was clearly intended to address counterfeiting and not to inhibit freedom of speech.
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Australia
16867 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2012  7:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list

Quote:
Does that mean the 1 dollar or 5 dollar notes we see from time to time that are stamped "Track this bill online at "blahblahblah.com" are in violation of the aforementioned law? Just wondering...

As I understand it, wheresgeorge.com got a legal opinion: as long as wheresgeorge don't actually do the bill stamping themselves and don't sell stamps or other gear to do it, they themselves aren't committing a crime. The people that put the stamps on, however, might be in trouble if the feds could be bothered going after them. If someone were to be unwise enough to put their own contact details on a note as well as the wheresgeorge notice, they'd be far more likely to attract attention. from the authorities.

Quote:
Is it illegal to have these coins even though you had nothing to do with the advertising on them? Just curious, I refuse to go to jail over a penny with something stamped on it!

No. The law quite clearly states the crime is in the stamping, or in circulating the stamped items. Pulling them out of circulation and keeping them in a collection is probably the best thing that can happen to them.

Quote:
Are we to now believe that all all those counterstamped coins, love tokens, hobo nickels, coin jewelery items, sticker dollars, etc., etc., are illegal? I seriously doubt it. The law was clearly intended to address counterfeiting and not to inhibit freedom of speech.

Not all of them, only the ones with blatant advertising on them.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2012  4:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list

Quote:
Does that mean the 1 dollar or 5 dollar notes we see from time to time that are stamped "Track this bill online at "blahblahblah.com" are in violation of the aforementioned law? Just wondering...

Yes they are. In fact back when the wheresgeorge website started up they sold a rubber stamp so you could stamp your notes. The government stepped in and told them to stop selling the stamp or face charges. They stopped selling the stamp.

Now if you get your own stamp made or you write it on the note it is still illegal but they are not likely to be able to find you, and the wheresgeorge people are off the hook because they didn't do it and they didn't sell you the stamp so you could do it.


Quote:
The law was clearly intended to address counterfeiting and not to inhibit freedom of speech.

The law was intended to keep the national coins and paper money from providing a free bulletin board. It also is easier to make sure the items are not counterfeit if they aren't covered with writing, advertisements or beaten up with counterstamps. It also keeps the government from having to replace these defaced pieces.

And the laws dealing with currency are much stricter than those dealing with coins as a rule. You can beat up, mutilate and deface your coins all you want (as long as you don't put an ad on them) and as long as it isn't done with fraudulent intent, you're fine.

But if you do anything to a paper note that would render it unfit to be reissued, then you have committed a crime and may be fined. No fraudulent intent is needed.

Edited by Conder101
01/25/2012 4:52 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
4421 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2012  5:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list
More fodder ........ the defacing of currency/coins/paper$

"The language of the U.S. Code as it applies to defacing currency restricts it to acts that individuals commit with an intention of defrauding others or making currency unfit for reissue. Other acts, such as writing notes on a bill or causing the kind of damage that occurs naturally, are not illegal. However, the U.S. Treasury discourages all types of currency manipulation.

The actual decision as to whether or not an individual has defaced currency with an intent to commit fraud is left to judges, who may consider additional evidence to determine guilt or innocence."

According to:

Read more: Defacing U.S. Currency Laws | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_6535889_de...xzz1kVqTrYaq


AND .... it is apparently legal to melt bullion coins.

Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2012  2:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list

Quote:
"The language of the U.S. Code as it applies to defacing currency restricts it to acts that individuals commit with an intention of defrauding others or making currency unfit for reissue. Other acts, such as writing notes on a bill or causing the kind of damage that occurs naturally, are not illegal. However, the U.S. Treasury discourages all types of currency manipulation.

They should read what the actual law says because it has nothing in it limiting it to acts done with intent to defraud. It makes the act itself, if done with the intent to make the note unfit for reissue, illegal. Not a word in there about fraudulent intent.


Title 18 Chapter 17 Sec 333. Mutilation of national bank obligations

Whoever mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or perforates, or unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal Reserve System, with intent to render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt unfit to be reissued, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.
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