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Four Year High!

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Pillar of the Community
United States
3670 Posts
 Posted 03/16/2012  08:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silverhawk74 to your friends list
Buying theory eh rgathright, I can buy that, lol....
Pillar of the Community
United States
5863 Posts
 Posted 03/16/2012  09:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add barryg to your friends list
Personally, I think the latest dip was entirely caused by me purchasing a monster box of ASEs. Seriously, silver was heading up when I made the purchase, and right afterwards it dropped about $1. Maybe my purchase was the straw that broke the camel's back or something.

Of course, my mother is still convinced that she personally caused the Great Northeast Blackout of 1965 since it happened just as she turned on the light switch in the kitchen....
Pillar of the Community
United States
4008 Posts
 Posted 03/16/2012  2:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list

Quote:
I just cannot invest in the stock market after having repeated proof that the SEC is doing very little to audit and protect our assets.

Somehow, I have the impression that the regulators do not exist to protect the little guys but to mediate differences between the BIG guys. No, they do not do a lot to help us and that's for sure. The Bernie Madoff debacle was a prime example of how incompetent the SEC is. Even after receiving solid evidence of Madoff's ponzi scheme, it still took them years to figure out what to do with it. Madoff himself was pretty dumb too, though, so maybe they deserved each other.

Still, it is possible to make decent money via investing in the stock market. Buying good mutual funds from a trustworthy and low cost fund company is probably one of the better methods. 4 of the 6 Vanguard funds I own earned better than 8% last year. While not great, that beat ALL of the fixed income type investments by up to several times over. The oil and gas royalty trusts are another place to make good money, although with more risk.

As to the OP's statement from the Yahoo news article... yes, figured in US dollars, the US stock market has had quite a surge over the past 3 years. This is a lot less impressive, however, when figured in ounces of gold and not in declining fiat currency terms. Oil, for example, is not over $100 a barrel because the US dollar is strong. It is high in price because it takes more of the now less-valuable dollars to buy a barrel of oil. It's the same with stocks. A profitable company is a real asset, so it takes more of the now less-valuable dollars to buy its shares too. Combine that with about $5T pumped into the US economy by the Fed and we have more dollars bidding the prices of fixed assets even higher.

Although there are many ways to calculate the true rate of inflation, one of the better ones, IMHO, is to calculate a ratio of this year's money supply divided by last year's money supply and convert that into a percentage increase or decrease. For example: if the US money supply was $2.5T last year and it is $2.8T this year, we have 2.8 / 2.5 = 1.12 which implies (1.12 - 1) x 100 or an inflation rate of 12%. While this is a simple estimate of inflation, it is also a reasonably accurate one as long as national production is similar from year to year. If it isn't, then adjustments can be made to rationalize the differences caused by production changes. With fewer goods produced and more money pursuing those goods, there will be a tendency for higher inflation numbers. Although this would be rare, this also works for deflation when the money supply is reduced from one year to the next.
Edited by Ed_B
03/16/2012 2:36 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
3670 Posts
 Posted 03/16/2012  2:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silverhawk74 to your friends list
Lol the great blackout of 65, good one.....

BF said if you dumped like a billion oz. into the market at one time, it would only change the price 50 cents either direction lol, so I am doubting htat 500 box buy theory, rof....
Valued Member
United States
264 Posts
 Posted 03/16/2012  4:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rgathright to your friends list
@Ed_b You make a solid case for diversifying, yet even the most stable investments can lose their value quickly.


Quote:
The oil and gas royalty trusts are another place to make good money, although with more risk.


Go check UNG then:
http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=...1:symbol=ung range=1y indicator=volume charttype=line crosshair=on ohlcvalues=0 logscale=on source=undefined
Pillar of the Community
United States
4008 Posts
 Posted 03/17/2012  8:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list
Diversification is one of only two "free lunch" items for the small investor. No, it is not a guarantee but it is a pretty good way of shaving the odds a bit in our favor. Yes, everything can go down in price at the same time but it typically does not.

As to UNG, no, I would not invest in that. It has a fairly poor record of matching up with gas prices, as it is supposed to do. In the oil and gas business, it is often better to invest in the pipeline companies. They get paid regardless of the price of oil or gas. They can suffer from reduced tonnages when demand for fuel declines, though.
Pillar of the Community
United States
808 Posts
 Posted 03/17/2012  10:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinwatch to your friends list
I agree with Ed_B's comments regarding an oil and gas play. If I were ready to sell a coin or two with an eye toward portfolio diversification (and a little income generation) I'd look at something like Chesapeake Midstream Partners, L.P. (NYSE:CHKM). This is NOT a recommendation, just an example.
Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 03/17/2012  10:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list
Wonder how many more trillions they'll have to pump into the economy to get the DJIA back to the 14,198.10 it hit under the shrub?
Valued Member
United States
410 Posts
 Posted 03/17/2012  10:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JSH to your friends list

Quote:
You make a solid case for diversifying, yet even the most stable investments can lose their value quickly.

What is the alternative? If you simply hold onto cash you are guaranteed to lose money due to inflation.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4008 Posts
 Posted 03/18/2012  5:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list
In today's investing world, there do not seem to be a lot of good alternatives. In many cases, our choices run the range of lousy to so-so. Fixed income investors have been slammed harder than gold and silver after a cartel paper raid. Millions of older Americans have their life savings in CDs and government bonds. These supposedly safe investments used to pay a reasonable rate of interest but don't any more. These same folks are burning through their principal to stay afloat while waiting for times to change and a little higher interest rate to salvage what they have left. They may or may not get it. If not, then many of them will be destitute. Things like this sometimes happen and that is unfortunate. When it is orchestrated, it is downright criminal, IMHO.

If I had to pick a generic investment plan for most people today, it would contain: 20% in dividend paying blue chip stocks or low cost stock funds; 20% in real estate investment trusts; 20% in precious metals; 20% in A rated or better industrial bonds; 10% in utilities, and 10% in cash. There are many ways to divide up investable cash and many details in a person's life that will dictate which of these kinds of things should accentuated or even replaced. Adjust annually, as seems appropriate with up to date info.

There is no one-size-fits-all approach and no approach that will always work. Investors who make money have gotten past worrying about such things. They make the best decisions they can with the info and situation at hand. After that, things are pretty much left to fate.
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 Posted 03/19/2012  10:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add traevin to your friends list
When stocks shot up in Mar 2009, many investors stayed on the sidelines and missed the rally because the experts were calling it a dead cat bounce. Unless a dead cat can bounce a lot farther than I would have thought possible, they were wrong. But I still think there is an artificial feel to this recent "bull" market and I would hesitate to jump in, especially now when things are looking more overbought (just an opinion) than ever. A correction's coming, I have little doubt, but when and how much of one? That's the question.
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United States
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 Posted 03/19/2012  8:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list
Traevin... you are a wise man.

I also have significant misgivings about the current stock market and believe that it is due for a serious correction. As you point out, we never do know when such a correction will arrive or how deep it might be. Those types of things belong in the realm of the future and none of us knows for sure what the future holds. Still, we can make some pretty good educated guesses.

This market makes me uncomfortable because it does not seem to be based on stock fundamentals. Instead, it is based upon the market distortions created by the Government and the Fed. We have a stock market that is not creating very many jobs, so a lot of people talk about a "jobless recovery"... whatever that is. In my mind, a recovery is just that... a time when both companies and labor do better than they have been doing.

The Fed has "injected" more than $5T into the market since 2008 and that money has forced stock prices higher. What we are seeing is not economic growth but inflation masquerading as growth. If we had real growth we would have a lot more jobs and not just service sector jobs or minimum wage jobs but REAL jobs that pay REAL wages. If we were producing more, we would be exporting more and we're not. Tax receipts, as reported by the US Treasury Dept., are lower today than they were a year ago. They may be able to fudge the unemployment numbers but they cannot as easily fudge the tax receipt data. It is what it is.

Also, this IS an election year, so the Fed and the Government will do all that they can to make everything seem just peachy when it is anything but that. I think that 2012 will probably be a decent year for stock investors but 2013 could be a real ripper. I plan to be VERY defensive as 2012 comes to a close. We do not know how the election will turn out and the result of that will play a very large role in whatever follows. Getting defensive means that I want to be out of this market by October 1 at the very latest. If that causes me to miss some year-end gains, then so be it. I can live with lost gains but not with substantial lost principal.
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 03/20/2012  8:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add traevin to your friends list
Thanks, Ed. Since I've been here, I've developed quite a high opinion of you, as well. But in my case, if one only gains wisdom by making egregious errors in judgment, is that truly wisdom? I lost thousands when the Dot.com bubble bust. After that debacle, I learned to place my trust in physical silver over faceless board members with opaque mission statements.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4008 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2012  7:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list

Quote:
Thanks, Ed. Since I've been here, I've developed quite a high opinion of you, as well.

Well, thanks for that and you are most welcome. It is a real pleasure to converse with others who can articulate their ideas and share them. We can all learn a lot in this way. The collective experience of the people on this site is pretty amazing and far exceeds that of any one of us.


Quote:
But in my case, if one only gains wisdom by making egregious errors in judgment, is that truly wisdom?

I don't really know but that IS an interesting question. Perhaps wisdom is the scar tissue on our experiences?


Quote:
I lost thousands when the Dot.com bubble bust. After that debacle, I learned to place my trust in physical silver over faceless board members with opaque mission statements.

I can relate to that. I've made and lost quite a bit of money in the stock market over the years. In the 2001 crash, for example, I lost about $230k from my 401K plan. That was about 1/2 of its value at the time and VERY painful. I got a repeat of that in 2008, losing about $275k from my IRA. The good news is that ALL of the money "lost" in 2001 was recovered in 2002-2007 and more was added on top of that. The losses from 2008 have mostly been recovered, thanks to mid-2009 through 2010. 2011 was OK for me as an investor but not great. I became somewhat philosophical about money. It seemed to me as if money was like an ocean tide... it rolls in and it rolls back out. After all this flailing about was said and done, I still ended up WAY ahead of where I would have been had I not invested at all. I'm not deprecating the value of investing in silver or gold at all. Both have been excellent for the past several years and seem poised to do at least as well for the next several years. In my case, though, I just was not interested in them until late in 2010, so have only been at this for a little over a year. I hope to have about 10% of so of my net worth in PMs sometime in the next year or so. I'm not an "all in" kind of guy, so will hedge my bets via diversification. That has worked well in the past and it may do so in the future as well. No guarantees on that, though.
Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 03/23/2012  6:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list

Quote:
. It seemed to me as if money was like an ocean tide... it rolls in and it rolls back out.


Difference is, you can tell when the tides will change.
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