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1943 Australian Penny Minted India

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Author Previous TopicReplies: 22 / Views: 21,949Next Topic Page 2 of 2
Valued Member
Australia
51 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2012  12:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sovereign Debt to your friends list
The missing "I" exists for both the Indian minted pennies of 1942 & 1943. Of course none of the Perth minted 1942-Ydot, 1943-Ydot or Melbourne minted 1943 had an "I" mintmark so don't initially get excited if you don't see one. It has to have a dot both before & after PENNY on the reverse & tall denticles & the P of IMP aligning with a gap between rim denticles on the obverse.

BTW in 1943 the Bombay mint used both long & short beaded reverses but all 1942 Indian minted penny reverses had long beads.

In 2010, a 1942 penny with Indian die obverse but no "I" mintmark cost $20.00 & a 1943 penny with Indian die obverse but no "I" mintmark cost $35.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
869 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2012  12:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add goatieman23 to your friends list
Those prices are valid if the coin hasn't been cleaned.
It looks like it has at some point in its life.
New Member
United States
21 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2012  12:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add someothertime to your friends list

I recently received this link that explains the missing I mint mark on the 1942 Australian Penny
See Also: [url]http://www.triton.vg/[url]

A portion of the page [below]
However it is well known that some 1942 pennies struck in Bombay do not show the "I" mintmark. It must be remembered that it was wartime and the need for coins was urgent. I personally packed, addressed and wrote out the Customs Declaration for the first pairs of master dies and punches sent to Bombay. They were made at the Melbourne Mint and did not have an "I" on them for the excellent reason that Melbourne did not possess an "I" punch. It seems that, the need being urgent, they were put to use immediately on arrival, and later a new master tool was struck using an "I" in Bombay's possession or which they acquired from elsewhere.~~Bill Mullett 1996
"Notes on Australian Pre-decimal Coinage" (Journal of the Australian Numismatic Society, 1996)
Valued Member
Australia
51 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2012  6:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sovereign Debt to your friends list
Yes & the article goes on to speculate that because the coins produced in India were different to those made in Melbourne & that Melbourne was unlikely to have made unique dies specially for India, "the dies from Melbourne presented the Bombay Mint something of a technical challenge. Perhaps its coining presses could not render the high-relief designs properly so the Bombay Mint elected to prepare new tools more suitable for its equipment." It would most likely have been this newly prepared Indian master obverse die that was missing the "I" mintmark & which produced working dies that initially were also missing the "I" but which was soon incorporated.

As well as longer denticles, the coins made from these dies in India show a much more robust chin on the kangaroo than coins made elsewhere. It is also likely that the Indian prepared reverse die didn't have the final year in the date but only 194 because originally the 1943 coins were missing the "I" as well (although again it was soon included) & their design matched that of the 1942 coins. However, in 1943 this design was apparently not considered suitable (maybe the difference in denticles was noted) and was soon replaced by a revised Bombay reverse that had shorter denticles than the previous design & this was used to strike the bulk of the 1943 pennies.

So the missing "I" certainly seems to be a genuine mint manufactured variety unlike the missing "I" from the 1916 halfpennies in examples I've seen where in certain lights the ghost of an "I" can be seen indicating that in this case, the absence of an "I" was produced by die fill.
Valued Member
Australia
51 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2012  7:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sovereign Debt to your friends list
Incidentally, according to an article in both my 1970 & 1980 editions of Renniks Australian Coin & Banknote Guide by Dion H. Skinner, at the time of the changeover to decimal coinage in Australia, the Bombay mint rather cheekily but superbly re-struck these 1942 & 1943 halfpennies & pennies in proof condition from the old dies that unfortunately were probably rusted because they were abrasively cleaned. However, on learning of this, the Australian government soon put a stop to this enterprising activity & the dies were returned to the RAM. Very few sets of these 4 coins were sold & in 1980 the price for a set was reported as $1,000 (in 1970 it was $400) so who knows what they would fetch today.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
4411 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2012  7:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add enworb to your friends list
I remember reading about that cheeky buggers!

P.s. S. Debt your information is great! Thanks for sharing
Edited by enworb
04/17/2012 7:13 pm
Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2012  10:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list
A pair (penny and halfpenny) of restrikes goes for around 40 thousand, I didn't know that they sold them as sets of 4 coins and havn't seen them come up that way at auction. IIRC they didn't just restrike the Australian coins but also coins from other parts of the Empire.
Filled "I" coins also exist for the 1916 and 1942 pennies (not to be confused with genuine missing "I" 1942 pennies). An early issue of Australian Coin Review had a good photo of an UNC 1943 "no I" but I don't know if it was due to die fill (probably) or mint staff forgetting the I punch.
The denticle variety of 1943 is about 1 in 30 coins as is the 1942 "no I" (I've searched through huge numbers of coins)but have never seen a 1943 "no I" (excepting the ACR photo).
Valued Member
Australia
51 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2012  07:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sovereign Debt to your friends list
For nealeffendi: Here is a selection of 1942 & 1943 pennies. Among other differences, the Melbourne & Perth Mints have obverses where the vertical stroke of the P in IMP is aligned with a rim denticle whereas in the Bombay coins the vertical stroke of the P in IMP is aligned over the gap between rim denticles. There are also differences in the serifs. On the reverses the Perth coins are distinguished from the Melbourne coins by the Perth coins having a dot after the Y in PENNY. The Bombay coins also have a dot before the P in PENNY.

1943-Australian-Penny-Minted-India

1943-Australian-Penny-Minted-India

1943-Australian-Penny-Minted-India

1943-Australian-Penny-Minted-India

1943-Australian-Penny-Minted-India

1943-Australian-Penny-Minted-India

1943-Australian-Penny-Minted-India

1943-Australian-Penny-Minted-India
Pillar of the Community
Australia
7096 Posts
 Posted 04/21/2012  07:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list
Great pic's and a very detailed explanation , my hat is off to you
Well done
Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2012  10:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list
Sov' D.
The 1943 "no I " that you have pictured has a distinct shadow where the "I" should be. An interesting filled die coin but not the same as the 1942 "no I". Some 1942 coins in my collection have a similar problem (but can be distinguished from the genuine article as the true no I coins all came from the same die and have distinct die markers). I doubt the existence of true "no I" coins for 1943.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
1041 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2012  7:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Basil to your friends list

Quote:
Sov' D.
The 1943 "no I " that you have pictured has a distinct shadow where the "I" should be. An interesting filled die coin but not the same as the 1942 "no I". Some 1942 coins in my collection have a similar problem (but can be distinguished from the genuine article as the true no I coins all came from the same die and have distinct die markers). I doubt the existence of true "no I" coins for 1943.


,i have several 1942 coins where if you look hard enough there is a very faint line where the I should be,one of these I purchased on ebay and couldn't be bothered getting into a dispute with the seller when he claimed I didn't know what I was talking about.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GeorgeV-194...t_500wt_1129
Edited by Basil
04/23/2012 9:52 pm
Valued Member
Australia
51 Posts
 Posted 04/23/2012  10:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sovereign Debt to your friends list
Yes I agree with nealeffendi that there is something suspicious about the 1943-I "no I" coin that I pictured but I don't think the story is as simple as just a filled die although that might be part of it. In the close-up I've outlined in yellow a u-ish shaped depression that is in the vicinity of where the "I" should appear but it only covers the bottom half of the missing "I". Why isn't there something that explains the missing top half?

Perhaps the die became filled & then the bottom half was over-filled leading to the depression in the coin. Is this possible?

Another peculiarity of this coin is the twist in the bases of the denticles from the R in REX through IMP to the R in GEORGE. Does this have anything to do with the "missing I"?

Except for the horrible stain, the 1942-I "no I" looks OK but please tell me what these distinct die markers are that distinguish genuine "no I" coins from "filled I" coins so I can check mine.



1943-Australian-Penny-Minted-India

1943-Australian-Penny-Minted-India

1943-Australian-Penny-Minted-India
Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts
 Posted 05/05/2012  10:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list
Sovereign Debt; the marker that I use to confirm if a '42 no I is genuine is a dot before VI. I have scores of these coins (dot before VI and no I) and that to me means that the variety is genuine (not a filled die) and came from a single die.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
1041 Posts
 Posted 05/06/2012  12:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Basil to your friends list
Thats correct its a different animal,i had forgotton all about the dot but many sold do not have the dot so they are a filled/damaged die of some sort and not the real McCoy.



1943-Australian-Penny-Minted-India

Valued Member
Australia
51 Posts
 Posted 05/06/2012  02:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sovereign Debt to your friends list
Thanks for that - I can see the dot on my 1942 "no I" so that's re-assuring at least. Now if only there was some characteristic mark on the so-called 1943 "no I" but I suspect you're right & they're all "filled I" types.
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