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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
since 1877 was a proof only issue for the 20¢ piece it was definitely made to be a circulated proof. The Chinese will fake these coins that are proof only and artificially wear them in tumblers to make it look like they were circulated for years before being removed from circulation. It knocks out some of the errors of their minting process and also will make a new buyer feel easier about purchasing the coins. Anytime you have a proof only date of classic coin there needs to be a specific return policy ironed out before purchasing if it isn't authenticated by a third party grader like NGC,PCGS or ANACS. I would usually tell the seller either he can send it in for authentication before I purchase and if it comes back good I will pay for the grading or he can send it to me with a guarantee its authentic and if it comes back from the TPG as counterfeit he will get the coin back. Usually if the seller has any indication its a fake they will bow out here Quote:
I'll be taking it to some dealers to get an opinion from them. Be sure you go to a few dealers that know the series very well and if even one says they think its counterfeit still send it in to be authenticated before keeping the coin. I would probably send it in anyway just for piece of mind. You don't have to join any clubs to submit to ANACS and if you would rather have it raw just crack it back out of its authentic. ANACS is sufficient in Counterfeit Detection to be pretty confident if they say its authentic or fake that is is, they are also about the cheapest TPG with this type of reputation Edit: I wanted to add, I guess if you read my first comment on page 1 I was in the same boat as others that thought you had pulled a classic proof out of circulation not bought one that is in circulated condition. There are plenty of circulated proof classic coins but I have never seen one actually in circulation as they were all pulled many many years ago. Probably the only way you would find one in circulation today is if some kid raided grandpaws jar and you were next in line at the counter |
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Do I see missing upper serifs on the "I" in "AMERICA?" Edit to add: If Hershey is not too long a haul for you, Rich Uhrich is one of the foremost people in the country for coins of this Seated design: http://www.richuhrichcoins.com/ |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3755 Posts |
Agree that coin needs to go to ANACSor ICG. To me, and like the others I am far from an expert on this series, the side by side says fake. Quote:
since 1877 was a proof only issue for the 20¢ piece it was definitely made to be a circulated proof Why do you say that? I could be wrong, but my understanding was that they were not meant for circulation and made for collectors even then. Especially with the 20 cent piece as it was a failure pretty much from the beginning. Just as they did with the last 7 years on the Trade dollars. |
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Pillar of the Community
1028 Posts |
I actually agree with you in this thread, smoker I'm not aware of any point in the history of the US mint that they designated a proof coin to be used in circulation. I think Bryan may have misspoke (mis-wrote). I further agree with smoker about this being particularly unlikely with the 20 cent piece. I think I wrote it before in this thread a long time ago, but from what I've read, not even the business strikes in the series were very popular circulating coins for contemporary commerce. All that being said, 19th century proofs ended up in circulation a lot more often than proofs do now. Part of the reason why is that they were never acquired in any real sealed packaging and were generally left free to roam even in the hands of collectors. The new proofs were also generally not worth much (in those days of course) and a personal resell on any secondary market was nearly impossible so many were just spent. As far as this thread goes, it is the consensus that the coin is, unfortunately fake. It is a good idea to go talk to dealers and get the opinion of someone who can hold the coin in hand. I would not recommend to send the coin to TPG because it has such a high chance of being fake and with having to insure it for it's value (presumed genuine) plus the cost of grading, you'd pay over $50 on a single coin. Not worth it in this case IMO Edited by hesgut
10/24/2012 12:23 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
when I said what I said above I was answering him with his question here Quote:
If the coin is a fraud, maybe it was intentional to make this a "circulated proof" as an uncirculated proof would be more difficult to reproduce? Just a thought.
And what I meant was that since it was a proof only issue and if it is a modern Chinese Fake it was definitely made to look like it was a circulated proof and the reason they do this is to cover up design flaws and to make buyers think since it spent time in circulation it may be real. I wasn't saying the US minted the coin to be circulated. This is why I usually try to quote the question I am answering but have had some people think I was singling them out because of one thing or another instead of me just letting the whole thread know what I am responding to at the time, so I have been trying to not quote everything like I usually do. I have ADD real bad and allot of times I will read the threads and when I read something I go ahead and respond to that comment and usually quote what they said and then respond, then I will post it and then finish reading and just go back and edit my posts time after time again when something else comes to mind I want to comment on or add so that is why when my mind starts racing (about like it is now) I start feeling like my posts start to not make much sense. I apologize for any confusion I have caused with my comment but wasn't trying to say the US minted any proofs to be circulated but the Chinese forgers do use proof only issues and since their dies will not be handled like the proof dies would have been they will put them in a tumbler and make them look circulated and the only reason you would think it was a proof would be from the date |
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Valued Member
 United States
51 Posts |
Well guys, I took the coin to two local experts and both of them thought it was a likely counterfeit. This coin weighed in at 5.1 g while another known coin in similar condition was 4.7-4.8 g. I forgot the term one guy used but he said something about the "speckling" or "dimpling" of the Reed Marks just inside the rim on each side, that they didn't look right. Not sure if I'm describing this adequately to you. Another guy said the 2nd "S" of STATES was almost gone at its top, where something like that would never be expected with a Proof strike. I'm currently using ebay's resolution center and disputed the charge on my credit card. The seller says that since a month has passed, he will not refund the money. Do you think that since this is US counterfeit currency, that I could call the county sheriff on the seller? Quote:Bryan1315: Be sure you go to a few dealers that know the series very well and if even one says they think its counterfeit still send it in to be authenticated before keeping the coin. I would probably send it in anyway just for piece of mind. You don't have to join any clubs to submit to ANACS and if you would rather have it raw just crack it back out of its authentic. ANACS is sufficient in Counterfeit Detection to be pretty confident if they say its authentic or fake that is is, they are also about the cheapest TPG with this type of reputation. I don't know about grading anymore. One of the dealers I saw said that he could have it sent to NGC along with others he's sending in himself today. He said he'd charge me $40 total (essentially what NGC would charge him); not sure if this is fair or even worth it at this time. Quote:
There are plenty of circulated proof classic coins but I have never seen one actually in circulation as they were all pulled many many years ago. Probably the only way you would find one in circulation today is if some kid raided grandpaws jar and you were next in line at the counter. The seller said it came from an estate auction. Maybe he bought grandpa's jar there. Quote:
SsuperDdave: Do I see missing upper serifs on the "I" in "AMERICA?"
Edit to add: If Hershey is not too long a haul for you, Rich Uhrich is one of the foremost people in the country for coins of this Seated design. Maybe, as one of the local experts here mentioned that the upper part of the 2nd "S" in "STATES" was missing. Hershey is a bit of a drive for me. Thanks though. And thanks for the analysis by everyone here. I really appreciate this forum. I don't want to leave the hobby, but this is quite a setback for me. Edited by andym
11/26/2012 09:13 am
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Rest in Peace
United States
4849 Posts |
As long as it is counterfeit, and you did not do anything to alter the coin that was sent to you; you should be able to get your money refunded and "force" a return. Just because a month passed should not make a difference, since selling counterfeits is illegal. Make sure you keep the seller's photo, in case you need it to prove the coin he sent was fake and was what you received. I dont know if calling the Sheriff would make a difference, but he definitely warrants a harsh negative for selling a fake and not refunding your money.
Edited by johnny54321
11/26/2012 1:49 pm
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Valued Member
United States
386 Posts |
Don't take a hit on this, andym.
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Valued Member
United States
51 Posts |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:
Do you think that since this is US counterfeit currency, that I could call the county sheriff on the seller?
Local law enforcement wont do a thing especially since the seller isn't in their jurisdiction I'm assuming. If you really wanted to the Secret Service is who deals with fake money though they may not bother for a single coin you could always inquire and see what your options are. As far as the seller claiming you switched the coin explain how you took the time to confirm it was fake before and take pictures showing its the same coin. You can also get notorized statements from the dealers you took it too if theyre willing but more than likely ebay will side with you if their past history is any indication |
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Valued Member
United States
51 Posts |
Quote:
Local law enforcement wont do a thing especially since the seller isn't in their jurisdiction I'm assuming. I meant to call HIS local sheriff and police. I know the sheriff swore an oath to defend the US Constitution, federal law, on counterfeit currency. |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
I doubt it, theyd more than likely let the Secret Service there since theyre the experts on counterfits. Especially since its an old coin the sheriff wont be able to say if its real or not and frankly just might not care.
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Rest in Peace
United States
4849 Posts |
Quote:I'm trying not to blackjack. But the seller's recent defense response to ebay now is that I replaced his "good" coin with a counterfeit of my own. Interestingly enough, I had the exact same problem in an ebay purchase I made 4 years ago when I was still relatively new to numismatics. It was also an expensive purchase, 1855 $3 gold coin at $600+. I posted about it on CCF like you, here in the archives: http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...PIC_ID=27428Seller said the same thing yours did, even though I never returned the coin, he claimed on my feedback that I tried to "switch" coins. I fought it through ebay, and was out of luck....but this was ONLY because the coin I purchased was originally inside a pendant. I had removed the soldered pendent, so therefore changed the configuration of the coin. Your situation is different if you did not alter the coin once received, so my bet is that you will win and get your money back fighting it through ebay. Good luck!!  I completely understand your frustration. |
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Pillar of the Community
1028 Posts |
Don't worry, you should win this case. Make sure you keep the seller's pictures and your pictures. My only concern would be that the seller claims you "sent him back a different coin" after ebay asks you to give him tracking info for the return after they rule in your favor. I've never had that happen as a buyer or seller so I don't know how that would work itself out. You probably should not have left the harsh negative feedback comment before the case was resolved as it probably made the seller very angry and more likely to try and stonewall you. Don't bother with calling any authorities. It would just be a hassle and nothing would come of it. From their viewpoint, there is a difference between counterfeit and fake. The feds DO care about counterfeit currency being passed, but nobody in their ranks cares about one fake coin created as a numismatic fraud. |
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Valued Member
United States
51 Posts |
I'd think that if there's fraud or if it's a fake, all bets would be off the table. If it was in a pendant and you took it out, it would just be a fake coin out of a pendant. What you received was a fake coin in a pendant. It's a fake coin either way.
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Posted 10/23/2012 9:00 pm
