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Pillar of the Community
United States
1531 Posts
 Posted 05/26/2014  7:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cruisinfusion to your friends list
I just don't understand why such a good counterfeit would be buried in an untouched 1800s homestead site.
But hey...
Pillar of the Community
United States
2661 Posts
 Posted 05/26/2014  9:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tim Stroud to your friends list

Quote:
Oh... Is it because the rotated dies are so common with these coins?


From what I can find 1 in 20000 had the 180 deg rotated die, so roughly 26 of these have the 180 rotation.
Pillar of the Community
United States
7620 Posts
 Posted 05/26/2014  9:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westernsky to your friends list
Looks fine to me and who cares whether it's counterfeit or not. You have nothing other than time invested in it. Free gold is not a bad thing.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2734 Posts
 Posted 05/26/2014  10:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DNA to your friends list

Quote:
I just don't understand why such a good counterfeit would be buried in an untouched 1800s homestead site.

Two words: Contemporary counterfeit
Pillar of the Community
United States
2661 Posts
 Posted 05/27/2014  5:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tim Stroud to your friends list

Quote:
You have nothing other than time invested in it.


Also a sore back & knee. I am over the hill, and let me tell you, the slope is steep on the other side.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2757 Posts
 Posted 05/27/2014  6:17 pm  Show Profile   Check robbudo's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add robbudo to your friends list
Counterfeits usually don't have the right weight. What is the weight of this coin? You might be able to save yourself some TPG's fees with 10 seconds and a scale.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2661 Posts
 Posted 05/27/2014  8:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tim Stroud to your friends list
Yeah I know. I will be taking it to work tomorrow, we have some really nice scales that will weigh grams to 3 decimal points.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 05/28/2014  10:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list

Quote:
In your opinion, is it MD or a DDR?

Neither one, Longacre doubling.


Quote:
Two words: Contemporary counterfeit

If so the weight will be wrong.


Quote:
Sorry to say this is not Genuine. Here's what I see. Cracks on the die into the rim. Area softness where it should not be. Absence of contact, circulation marks. Incorrect date position. Mismatched "1" digits in the date.

Die cracks have no indication as to authenticity. The dies or mold (if cast) could have been made from a coin that had die cracks, or in the case of a struck fake fake dies crack too. Softness and uneven strike was often a problem with the gold dollars because of the thinness of the planchet. Incorrect date position, how many dies were used to strike 1861 dollars? Each of them would have had slightly different position of the date. I don't know how many reverse were used so I can't tell if this doesn't match any of the known dies. Mismatched 1's, the logotype used had mismatched 1's. Soo the 1861 dollar on the Coinfacts page, it has mismatched 1's as well.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2661 Posts
 Posted 05/28/2014  3:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tim Stroud to your friends list

Quote:
Neither one, Longacre doubling.


Not familiar with that. What exactly is Longacre doubling?
Pillar of the Community
United States
593 Posts
 Posted 05/28/2014  6:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add garys64wildcat to your friends list
I had a White detecter back in the late 60`s, but I had someone steal it from me. $300. then was a lot of money. I like the new ones much better. I got tired of pull tabs and bottle caps. But some silver coins and pnnys

Great find whether fake or not. It look real to me but I'm no expert


Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2014  1:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list
Longacre doubling is a particular type of doubling that first appears on coins designed during the tenure of Chief Engraver James Longacre. It is characterized as a flat shelf like doubling around the lettering and sometimes also on the devices. The defining characteristic is that the doubling is often seen of BOTH sides of the same letter or even all the way around the letter. It is caused by the punch used to punch the letter or device into the master die having a raised "shoulder" around the letter and the punch being driven into the die far enough that the "shoulder" appears in the die.

While there is nothing definitive as to why this occurs I believe it was because Longacre was not a trained die sinker or engraver. His specialty was flat plate engraving and he got his appointment as Chief Engraver through political connections and not qualifications. From his appointment in 1844 through 1848 this was not a problem because the master dies already existed and the only punching done was for the date. but in 1849 Longacre had to create two new designs for the gold dollar and double eagle and Longacre doubling appears for the first time.

I believe that Longacre used these "shouldered" punches so that he would know when the punching was deep enough (When the shoulder starts to appear you are deep enough.) And when the working die was polished or basined the shoulders could also be used as a guide the proper basining. When the shoulders disappear that section is properly basined.

As mentioned Longacre doubling is not seen before Longacre's term or office, but it does continue to appear after he died but only until the master die was modified. For example Longacre doubling can be found on both sides of the Indian Head cent before 1886. After the new Hub of 86 obverse was introduced it is no longer seen on the obv die, but the reverse was never altered and Logacre doubling can be found on the reverse through the end of the series.

Longacre doubling is not seen on every coin during the Longacre era because if the working die was properly basined and polished all of the shouldering is gone. But if the die shop was rushed because of high demand for dies things would get sloppy and not all of the shouldering is removed. In some cases it looks like they have hardly tried. Also as the die is used and wears the doubling can also fade and wear away. (At one time some people thought the doubling came from die wear and deterioration, but Longacre doubling is found on proof dies and and coins with very small mintages where the dies would never have had a chance to wear very much. Also there are cases where early die states of a variety show much stronger Longacre doubling that later die states of the same variety.)
Pillar of the Community
United States
2661 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2014  8:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tim Stroud to your friends list
OK the weights and measures are in and I am leaning far toward this thing being the real deal now. The die clash present on this coin is also atypical for this issue as is described here. http://www.maddieclashes.com/atypic...-gold-coins/

Weight= 1.671 grams

Diameter= 15.002 mm

NOTE Red Book lists the diameter as 15 mm, and the weight at 1.67

Our coin facts section of this site lists the diameter at 14.3 mm, and the weight at 1.7 grams

NGC is closer to what I got http://www.ngccoin.com/NGCCoinExplo...px?UCID=25CU

Valued Member
United States
324 Posts
 Posted 05/29/2014  10:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BluegrassRiver to your friends list
Tim,
what metal detector do you use? How did you know this property had a home on it in the 1800's. Do you use an old map?
Pillar of the Community
United States
2661 Posts
 Posted 05/30/2014  12:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tim Stroud to your friends list
I was using the Ace 250 as I had not yet recived my AT-Pro. I rembered that there was an old house there when I was just a kid and there are the tell tell signs alsosuch as several large Oaks in a clsuter. These were used to shade homes in this area before the advent of AC. There is also a power line that just seams to randomly terminate near the cluster of Oaks. The area that I dug this coin in was away from where I believe the house sat in some young pines and scrubby Sweetgum's that will eventually take over the site if it is left fallow.
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United States
8516 Posts
 Posted 05/30/2014  1:45 pm  Show Profile   Check 52Raymo's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 52Raymo to your friends list
" Gold in the pock babyyy "
Oh could you give me the gps coordinates please ?
Oregon coin geek.....*** GO BEAVS ! ! ! ***
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