What Does Belzberg Mean?

Well Pacific, I got 1 to 6!
Well said, even though I am not familiar with some of the US and British stuff u mentioned.
But maybe a Article or research papers (7 + 8), are not all that important for a true collector. Most simply are not
"up" to do that.
I prefer to let the "smart and intelligent" educated numismatists do that.

Roger totally agree with what you said! I was fortunate to get two of the Edward VII halves from the Remick sale and sent them in to ICCS and subsequently resold them to a want list. However I kept the sale tags in the 2 1/2 X2 1/2 flips and they are now in Remick's old hardcover book as bookmarks! Neat thing is the book is autographed by Remick presented to Ron Greene! Pedigree for sure , sentimental you bet, treasured...............priceless!

Pacific: I agree with you in bringing thread-readers back to the facts and down to reality. I, along with 2-3 others that I know on this site, have completed 1-9 and know where you are coming from. I think that there are a number of folks on here that are missing the mark a little on provenance, as well as holder or TPG significance. The people mentioned who formed these tremendously important collections didn't do so in the way that some people may be leaning. Belzberg, for example, had no dollar limit on what he would pay for the "finest" or "close to finest" specific coin regardless what it was. People in this stratosphere don't buy their coins from annual auctions or ebay. They come from private collections world-wide that haven't surfaced for 10, 20 or 50 years, but the top .0001% of collectors know exactly where that coin(or coins)is, as well as what it looks like, what it's been graded, and how it stacks up against the "finest known". The same way that we peons pass around our private holdings at "show and tell" over a few beers during or after Torex or Expo or Nuphilex or NY or FUN, these guys do so in private jets and personal visits around the world just to handle and see things that us commoners don't.

I know collectors here that have tracked a single coin for 10, 20, 30 years that hasn't seen the light of day in an auction or show, yet know that it has changed hands 2 or 3 times during that same period. The provenances that are being refered to here isn't about whose name is on the TPG holder now, but the pedigree and history it had for the decades before and known as the 1st or 2nd finest known for years. All this by extremely knowledgeable collectors with unlimited wallets and with the assistance of top-escelon "finders" who keep their eyes open and ears to the ground. There is 0% chance that any coin coming on the market now, supposedly unknown, could even approach one of these "private collection" coins that are the point of this thread. Likewise, no one in their right mind would ever send one of these coins to ICCS (God forbid)for grading, or to any other current TPG through anything nearing normal channels. Even disregarding "grading creep" where a current 66 would have been lucky to get a 63 20 years ago, many coins in these collections are viewed and graded by different eyes than those available to Joe Shmo public and have been for decades in various countries. These coins have been photo'd, scanned and fingerprinted so that every single anomaly is documented and recorded. There are no "copies" or fakes possible with these coins, nor "changing holders".

Is every single coin that was sold in these auctions (Pitman, Belzberg, etc) have the history and pedigree behind it that I allude to? - no, but most or many do. If the coin was important enough to have an "ex-xxx" notation on the holder, then it's important enough to own in a collection, knowing that the coin has been viewed by many many expert eyes and graders long before you got your hands on it. Is it worth the extra bucks just to have 1 or 2 of these in your collection? - who knows, but I know that I don't have the money to do that, nor do many others. I also know that I don't care about who owned it before. I only care about that it is what it is .. the coin in the holder or coin in the raw.

I doubt it... if Chuck Moore really wanted to promote it (and not sell it quickly) then he could have probably done that with PCGS, NGC or even ICCS... I don't think the Canadiana collection was pedigreed. I do think it would be cool to see the "Perth Collection" someday, when that collector decides to sell his stuff...

SPP and others:
the indirect reference to a TPG was in the OP first post. Am I wrong saying that the only way one will know what the coin is (pedigree etc), is because the description on the slab it is housed in does actually say so?
Or, would you or anyone, be able to tell by just simply examining a raw coin, lets say a "newly found", authentic, 1936 raw DOT cent?
personally I do not think so.
Here is another question: does anyone know who initiated labeling the slabs with owners names? was it a owner or did a TPG start it?
To me it boils down to this: If one wants to pay the money just for a name.. go for it!
I guess it is just like in the fashion industry. The label is important and is worth money to those who want to be seen and recognized as being able to afford it.

This topic could go on for a long time. we can dissect it and reassemble it.
Most Opinions will differ and possibly all have their own merit.
at the end it boils down to two very personal choices:

1 do I want, for whatever personal reasons, own such a coin?
2 Is that recognition worth the extra Dollars for me to pay?

Have to agree with Pacificoin and SPP on their comments here.


A knowledgeable cent collector brought some offered coins to my attention.

There was a partial collection of ~100 Jack Griffin cents that were out there ...and they needed a better home.

I felt that they should stay together and each had Jack's wonderful multi-details handwritten descriptive notes all over each 2 x 2. Exactly the same cents that we see throughout his books and with the same comments.

I jumped at the chance to have a little bit of history kept together ..and hopefully for everyone's viewing down the road..

I feel that these 2 x 2's are every bit as important as the actual cents in them.. and together they make the perfect pairing..

On certain buys, the provenance can be the deal maker ...and on others it's the coin itself..

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As a hobbyist, flipper, investor, you want the best coin for the money. But as a true collector of anything , and I have heard this a thousand times on Antique Roadshow, provenance means everything.

And my mantra is " Buy the coin not the holder " , my only contention was that buying a coin with provenance was the epitome of buying the coin not the holder. Regardless of the TPG, regardless of the grade, regardless of what RedBook says the coin itself is worth, THAT coin was part of one of the finest collections in the country. While other people can only fantasize the lives of their coins, provenance gives you the knowledge of exactly where your coin has been for the last ? years.

To me, anyway, that is buying the coin not the holder.

EDIT: Just reread my post, I am NOT saying that people who don't care about provenance are not true coin collectors, so don't flame me. But provenance is an extremely important part of many...many other types of collecting.

Thanks for the education on this topic. I had Pittman and Norweb coins a few years ago and unfortunately sold them without knowing the history. Belzberg was purchased at auction, I can't recall if it was HA or other site.