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 Replies: 34 / Views: 7,078 |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1505 Posts |
Denco
Quote:
when exactly did we start "arguing" about which was the better grading company
I did NOT argue! obviously you did not get or understand the example / comparism I used ! this is not about a better grader. It is about the coins were graded when the TPG's attitude toward Canadian coins were 2-4 grades OUT !! I simply represented my position and tried to convey it so everyone understands the issue one could be confronted with. anyone can spend their $ anyway they want. Pay for pedigree, a name, a grade or whatever. it is their money! and if someone is willing to accept a coin which other TPG's will grade lower, and pay more for it, well, so be it. How many Pittman or whatever graded coins would you like to have? you can place an order in the orient. And I challenge you to identify the actual COIN from a original pedigree graded coin. The coin only. (they use original authentic lower graded coins which they buy on the open market and insert them in pedigree holders! as easy as 1-2 3!! they do not need to use their Fake coins! they use real coins. cheap enough to buy a MS 62 1913 etc.... and sell it as a pedigree coin ... they have the holders, and the printers.
Edited by 47P7
01/05/2015 12:19 am
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1505 Posts |
I see these coins as something similar to owning a hat, jacket, cigar etc... that was once owned by a famous person. It is a neat item that can be attributed to some collection/event/milestone/person in history. Does one of JFK's cigars taste any different than a cigar of the same brand/year/etc..., no. But is it a more interesting piece because JFK owned it, to some yes, others no.
The Pittman/Belzeberg/GSA/other collections were pretty big events when they came up for sale.
Would I pay extra for one of the coins from that collection, maybe, given the choice of a Belzberg MS66 or a regular MS 66 (all else being equal), I would take the Belzberg coin in a heartbeat. Would I pay a premium for a coin from the "Purelywasted" collection, no, but maybe someone will when I am 80 after a lifetime of collecting and finish my Canadian set.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
I have a pair of busted Rayban sunglasses that were originally owned by Peter Fonda. All I see is a pair of busted sunglasses. So it's definitely a case of "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". You can still buy a Saddle Ridge Horde coin on Amazon if you want to pay 4 figures more than the same coin without the designation. It's whatever the market says it is, I guess. |
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5394 Posts |
Purely ................great example of provenance adding value when you mention the GSA sale of Carson City Morgan dollars. Those and the Paramount cased Redfield Hoard Dollars have markets of their own and indeed bring a higher price than a normal dollar of similar grade. Part of the indifference of provenance as pertaining to Canadian coins again most likely goes back to the rather immature and unsophisticated state of the Canadian Market . There have not been that many GREAT collections formed in Canada over the past 150 years by purely passionate numismatists. Belzberg and Mason ( two examples of recent expensive and extensive collections) were more business plays rather than numismatic ventures. Both families were / are very wealthy and formed the collections as a business venture more than anything else. Other numismatic markets are much more sophisticated by a country mile in both research and depth of numismatic interest. Namely the USA and the British Coin Markets. Provenance in both places are indeed part of the research and history of their coinages. The pedigree aspect was important long before Third party grading ever happened. If one cares to look, old US and British auction catalogues of famous collections often bring stupid money when offered and are valuable research tools to a dedicated numismatist. I will put this out there and I am sure it is going to be to be a very controversial subject ................." There are only a small number of dedicated true numismatists in Canada " The Majority of Canadians (again NOT all) who say they collect coins have probably never done most or all of the following. 1. Spent $500 or more on a single classic coin (not RCM or Gold) 2. Attended a Major coin show 3.Attended a major coin auction 4. Members of a Numismatic Organization RCNA,ANA, or similar 5. Submitted coins to a third party grader 6. Taken any seminars or Numismatic courses (counterfeiting, grading or authentication as examples ) 7. Given a research paper or talk on numismatics 8. Written an article on a numismatic subject 9. Have a library of numismatic books larger than 12-15 titles. Look forward to what other forum members have to say? Edited by Pacificoin
01/05/2015 01:38 am
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1505 Posts |
Well Pacific, I got 1 to 6!
Well said, even though I am not familiar with some of the US and British stuff u mentioned.
But maybe a Article or research papers (7 + 8), are not all that important for a true collector. Most simply are not
"up" to do that.
I prefer to let the "smart and intelligent" educated numismatists do that.
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Moderator
Canada
10458 Posts |
Quote:AND, who can say with absolute certainty that such a coin is really what the cover says? Way back, I assume, it could have been relatively easy to "make a deal" with a TPG for mass grading. Quote:I did NOT argue! obviously you did not get or understand the example / comparism I used ! this is not about a better grader. It is about the coins were graded when the TPG's attitude toward Canadian coins were 2-4 grades OUT !! Actually, I think you are missing the point of this entire thread... prior to your post, who said anything about TPG coins? This is about pedigree or provenance - who owned the coin previously. Simple as that. As I stated, it is the why, and not the what, when it comes to the sentimental side of collecting. So yes, I bought Pittman's VIP specimen set (in PCGS holders) but it also came with the original case of issue. I have better specimen strikes from that year, but I wanted Pittman's set. Simple as that. I'll give you another example. I paid a strong price for a coin that was originally purchased from Spink in London at the Remick sale - the coin was raw when it was purchased, it is now in a PCGS holder, but does not have any pedigree written on the certificate - nonetheless, I wanted it badly. Why did I do this? I feel, in a former life, I probably would have had a strong connection to Remick. We were both geologists, both numismatists and both love to write about coins. I even won a Geological Association of Canada (whom Remick donated the sale of his coins to) Remick Poster award once as a young graduate student... so when I had the chance to buy a ex-Remick NFLD 1880 Oval 0 (and the paperwork exists to prove it), the grade and TPG holder was irrelevant... I was buying Remick's coin... I could have bought J&M's PCGS AU-53 Oval 0 that they currently have for sale... did I pay too much, maybe, but who cares... I think it is pretty darn cool, to hold Remick's coin in my hand... "Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5394 Posts |
Roger totally agree with what you said! I was fortunate to get two of the Edward VII halves from the Remick sale and sent them in to ICCS and subsequently resold them to a want list. However I kept the sale tags in the 2 1/2 X2 1/2 flips and they are now in Remick's old hardcover book as bookmarks! Neat thing is the book is autographed by Remick presented to Ron Greene! Pedigree for sure , sentimental you bet, treasured...............priceless!
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5394 Posts |
@47P7 excellent job! You are right about 7 and 8 being somewhat challenging, although your club contributions and photography have to account for a partial here as well !  Edited by Pacificoin
01/05/2015 02:08 am
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5588 Posts |
Pacific: I agree with you in bringing thread-readers back to the facts and down to reality. I, along with 2-3 others that I know on this site, have completed 1-9 and know where you are coming from. I think that there are a number of folks on here that are missing the mark a little on provenance, as well as holder or TPG significance. The people mentioned who formed these tremendously important collections didn't do so in the way that some people may be leaning. Belzberg, for example, had no dollar limit on what he would pay for the "finest" or "close to finest" specific coin regardless what it was. People in this stratosphere don't buy their coins from annual auctions or ebay. They come from private collections world-wide that haven't surfaced for 10, 20 or 50 years, but the top .0001% of collectors know exactly where that coin(or coins)is, as well as what it looks like, what it's been graded, and how it stacks up against the "finest known". The same way that we peons pass around our private holdings at "show and tell" over a few beers during or after Torex or Expo or Nuphilex or NY or FUN, these guys do so in private jets and personal visits around the world just to handle and see things that us commoners don't. I know collectors here that have tracked a single coin for 10, 20, 30 years that hasn't seen the light of day in an auction or show, yet know that it has changed hands 2 or 3 times during that same period. The provenances that are being refered to here isn't about whose name is on the TPG holder now, but the pedigree and history it had for the decades before and known as the 1st or 2nd finest known for years. All this by extremely knowledgeable collectors with unlimited wallets and with the assistance of top-escelon "finders" who keep their eyes open and ears to the ground. There is 0% chance that any coin coming on the market now, supposedly unknown, could even approach one of these "private collection" coins that are the point of this thread. Likewise, no one in their right mind would ever send one of these coins to ICCS (God forbid)for grading, or to any other current TPG through anything nearing normal channels. Even disregarding "grading creep" where a current 66 would have been lucky to get a 63 20 years ago, many coins in these collections are viewed and graded by different eyes than those available to Joe Shmo public and have been for decades in various countries. These coins have been photo'd, scanned and fingerprinted so that every single anomaly is documented and recorded. There are no "copies" or fakes possible with these coins, nor "changing holders". Is every single coin that was sold in these auctions (Pitman, Belzberg, etc) have the history and pedigree behind it that I allude to? - no, but most or many do. If the coin was important enough to have an "ex-xxx" notation on the holder, then it's important enough to own in a collection, knowing that the coin has been viewed by many many expert eyes and graders long before you got your hands on it. Is it worth the extra bucks just to have 1 or 2 of these in your collection? - who knows, but I know that I don't have the money to do that, nor do many others. I also know that I don't care about who owned it before. I only care about that it is what it is .. the coin in the holder or coin in the raw. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
627 Posts |
Slightly off topic but still relevant to provenience and historical significance, do you think the Langdon hoard is large enough or significant enough to have a notation on the holder? Other countries have had their significant finds like the GSA and Redfield hoards. Will the Lagndon hoard have a following?
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Moderator
Canada
10458 Posts |
I doubt it... if Chuck Moore really wanted to promote it (and not sell it quickly) then he could have probably done that with PCGS, NGC or even ICCS... I don't think the Canadiana collection was pedigreed. I do think it would be cool to see the "Perth Collection" someday, when that collector decides to sell his stuff...
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert OppenheimerContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1554 Posts |
 I find it's a pleasurable part of Collecting when one can acquire a coin that once belonged to a Famous collector and was part of one of the World's Finest Collection. Belzberg & Pittman are two of the most popular names that collectors like to acquire a pedigree from. What happens when a $500.00 guitar is owned and played by Jimmy Hendrix? The guitar now sells at auction for $1,000,000. All because of the pedigree, the thrill of owning something from an Icon in History! Glenn  |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1505 Posts |
SPP and others: the indirect reference to a TPG was in the OP first post. Am I wrong saying that the only way one will know what the coin is (pedigree etc), is because the description on the slab it is housed in does actually say so?
Or, would you or anyone, be able to tell by just simply examining a raw coin, lets say a "newly found", authentic, 1936 raw DOT cent? personally I do not think so. Here is another question: does anyone know who initiated labeling the slabs with owners names? was it a owner or did a TPG start it?
To me it boils down to this: If one wants to pay the money just for a name.. go for it! I guess it is just like in the fashion industry. The label is important and is worth money to those who want to be seen and recognized as being able to afford it. This topic could go on for a long time. we can dissect it and reassemble it. Most Opinions will differ and possibly all have their own merit. at the end it boils down to two very personal choices: 1 do I want, for whatever personal reasons, own such a coin?  2 Is that recognition worth the extra Dollars for me to pay?
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1505 Posts |
Glenn, that guitar is a ONE of a Kind, made for that artist!
there are not hundreds or thousands or more like it!
and such items are usually purchased with the anticipation of considerable financial gain when re-selling.
as said before, there are only a very few collectors who can easily afford and would never consider selling it.
For most normal people it is probably not realistic.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3234 Posts |
Have to agree with Pacificoin and SPP on their comments here.
A knowledgeable cent collector brought some offered coins to my attention.
There was a partial collection of ~100 Jack Griffin cents that were out there ...and they needed a better home.
I felt that they should stay together and each had Jack's wonderful multi-details handwritten descriptive notes all over each 2 x 2. Exactly the same cents that we see throughout his books and with the same comments.
I jumped at the chance to have a little bit of history kept together ..and hopefully for everyone's viewing down the road..
I feel that these 2 x 2's are every bit as important as the actual cents in them.. and together they make the perfect pairing..
On certain buys, the provenance can be the deal maker ...and on others it's the coin itself..
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Edited by DEVLEC
01/06/2015 09:48 am
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Replies: 34 / Views: 7,078 |
First Page
Posted 01/05/2015 12:56 am
