1886 Morgan Dollar, Grade Added

I saw this one too, almost bid on it, so I will pass on the guessing, I don't think it would pass a regrade, but it's worth every penny of what you spent in this holder, to someone that buys the holder and not the coin, and we all know there are many of those types of collectors out there, the ones that don't or can't educate themselves, and rely solely on a TPGs opinion.

That is a super clean cheek. If the strike was a little stronger, I'd say MS-66 or 67.

I took some pictures with my new camera. I went back today (8/4) and did a bit of postprocessing to fix balance issues.

What do you think, is MS-65 still too high?

This is a later but not VLDS or terminal die state coin, with light areas of rusting around the edges, several die cracks, some slight chips. In hand, it's absolutely attractive, with nice golden toning. The lettering on both sides shows a lot of die wear towards the denticles. The die line on the reverse (from N in IN GOD to eagle) and both obverse diagnostics (die line from neck, clashed N still visible left of neck, high 6) make this a VAM-6B in my opinion. The eagle's left wing is completely broken by a die crack running from the F in OF over through the A in AMERICA.

I assigned it a "personal" grade of MS-64 and stuck it in the safe and writing it off as a gamble that didn't pay off. I agree, the reverse is quite weak, but it's a late die state coin, so the breast feathers may be due to heavy die wear.

People confuse "soft" strikes with late stage dies quite often. They are related, but not quite the same. The striking force applied to the planchet is the same, but the details on the stamping die have been polished often, leading to obliteration of highest detail first, then lower surfaces, then eventually the surfaces of the coin not shielded by the depth of die sinking. The metal develops flow lines deeper and deeper, eventually large pieces fall out or chip out, major cracks occur, and even rust can set in on older coin series.

When someone says that a coin was "weakly struck" they are referring to a combination of the planchets' and dies' metallurgical characteristics (malleability and flow) and to both the depth of the detail on the die being used (was it engraved well like early S mint coins or tossed off in a frenzied rush like mid-1880s O mint morgans?) and the striking pressure applied to the die within the collar.

As the life span of the die deteriorates, the strike quality thusly appears to diminish in turn.

It is my subjective opinion that TPG's and experienced dealers and collectors differentiate between a late-die-state or very-late-die-state coin, and one that was simply poorly struck with relatively-early-state dies; that, to me, is why this coin was graded as such, despite the seeming lack of detail. The die sinking and even a bit of rust are well noted around the rims. If this had been a coin with none of the LDS diagnostic markers, but with the same poorly struck reverse, it would have likely been dinged a grade step as a technical demerit, say, from a 65 to a 64, whereas a LDS example such as this one with the same poorly struck reverse might be given a "pass."

I paid about retail, with no slab premium, and well back of PCGS's extremely inflated price guide. The fact that it's a slightly scarcer VAM and attractively toned was an added bonus. For what I paid, it is acceptable, but not a "win" per se, perhaps a break-even or slightly ahead. I do not think it would pull a -65 again in a breakout and reslab, perhaps a high end 64 or 64+, because the eye appeal is, in hand, quite outstanding. To NGC, it would be perhaps a 64+ coin, not at a * level but not a straight 64.

It's worth mentioning that you should compare this coin to other OGH MS-65 Morgans for the best idea; what PCGS calls an MS-65 now was, in my opinion, a MS-63 15 years ago and a MS-60 25 years ago.

That's nonsense. There has been some grade inflation but to suggest we are talking about 2 points worth over 15 years? Not true. The extant grade inflation has been maybe 3/4s of a point over the entire existence of the company. I'd argue that is pretty much down to about a quarter point now at most, PCGS has been very strict on Morgans the past 14-16 months based on my submissions. Across the board, grades seem to be down a quarter point or so and the rate of CAC stickers on those said coins is up 10-15%, both indicating tighter grading.

I also do not know why you think die state has any effect on grade outside of high gem grades. It does not matter, look at their grading standards. Deterioration of the die might keep you from a 66, but it's certainly not a game breaker between 64 and 65. Luster (later die state coins will have better luster usually) is far more important as well as surfaces. Strike quality as a whole makes up maybe 15% of a grade at lower grades, where contact marks and luster account for 75% or so, with the remaining sliver going to eye appeal.

Good points, Cartwheel, but graders are human, and their skill at their art, or lack thereof, is not always a guarantee. Where one grader sees LDS or VLDS, another might see poorly struck or flat details.

As to the first subject, there are plenty of available articles documenting a single coin being graded anywhere from, say, AU-55 to MS-63 by different TPG's, all on the same coin.

Also, there have been tests where the same coin was sent in to a TPG, graded, returned, broken out, resent in, and returned with a different grade.