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1978 JFK Wide Collar? Mad? What Is It?

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Pillar of the Community
United States
3331 Posts
 Posted 08/10/2015  7:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list

Quote:
A wide collar will always be a larger diameter.


Well, of course this coin has a larger diameter! It is just such a tiny bit larger, however. What I do not understand is how much larger does it have to be to earn the attribution of a wide collar? It seems rather subjective to me. My coin looks very much like the photo of the 1918 cent on the previous site I referenced! It also looks very much like the 1972 JFK on the site reference below with a MAD, except the part of my coin opposite the "Double Rim" doesn't look like the one in the example. So all this is why I am confused! Here is the JFK (my reverse is also different than this one):

http://www.error-ref.com/?s=mis...ned+die
Rest in Peace
United States
1943 Posts
 Posted 08/10/2015  8:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pyrbob to your friends list
I think your first step in searching for wide collar errors is to research the tolerances for coin diameters. I tried to help you out and look it up quick but I couldn't find it. A wide collar error isn't subjective. It is simply larger than the upper limit for the coin's diameter. Maybe someone on the forum here has the diameter tolerances handy and can help out.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 08/10/2015  8:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list
To me it looks like the coin was dropped. The area in question is not rounded like the rest of the rim in that area. That is what I see.
Pillar of the Community
United States
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 Posted 08/10/2015  8:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list

Quote:
To me it looks like the coin was dropped.


What does that mean? Are you saying someone dropped it on the floor?
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United States
3331 Posts
 Posted 08/10/2015  8:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list

Quote:
I think your first step in searching for wide collar errors is to research the tolerances for coin diameters. I tried to help you out and look it up quick but I couldn't find it.


Thanks for trying - I couldn't find it either!
Bedrock of the Community
United States
62064 Posts
 Posted 08/10/2015  8:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list
yes and damage the edge. It happens.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3331 Posts
 Posted 08/10/2015  8:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list

Quote:
yes and damage the edge. It happens.


I cannot see how dropping it on the floor could damage the edge around 1/2 of the circumference! That just does not seem possible to me! Have you actually seen that happen?
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United States
7075 Posts
 Posted 08/10/2015  9:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Buddy to your friends list
Something scraped the coin from 1 to 6 o'clock. Any chance that whatever caused that damage also attacked the rim?
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United States
3331 Posts
 Posted 08/10/2015  9:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list

Quote:
Something scraped the coin from 1 to 6 o'clock. Any chance that whatever caused that damage also attacked the rim?


To me that looks like counting/rolling machine damage. I have never seen that have such an impact on the rim. It is like there are 2 rims! That is what I am so confused about!!
Pillar of the Community
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3331 Posts
 Posted 08/10/2015  9:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list
With regard to tolerances, the US Mint only discusses having no tolerance for discrimination! There is no reference to diameter tolerance. One source (cited below) which discusses Weight Tolerance but lists none for diameter. Am I to infer that there is zero tolerance for diameter? The Mint says diameter is 30.61 mm, other sources mostly round off to 30.6 mm.

Here is the other source:
http://coins.about.com/library/US-C...in-Specs.htm
Rest in Peace
United States
7075 Posts
 Posted 08/10/2015  10:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Buddy to your friends list
Good to know that the mint has a policy on tolerance.

While the mint sets the specifications for the coin, I would think that anything that didn't get stuck in a vending machine would be tolerated. I'm probably wrong about that.

I keep thinking that IF something -- like a coin machine -- scratched its way into that coin, the metal would spread.

I can't see how this happened at the mint....

Have you weighed it? If it's normal weight then I would think it just got 'enlarged' somehow, probably outside of the mint.

It is a puzzle. I like to think we can figure them all out, but I don't suppose that's always possible.
Rest in Peace
United States
1943 Posts
 Posted 08/11/2015  05:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pyrbob to your friends list
"With regard to tolerances, the US Mint only discusses having no tolerance for discrimination! There is no reference to diameter tolerance. One source (cited below) which discusses Weight Tolerance but lists none for diameter. Am I to infer that there is zero tolerance for diameter? The Mint says diameter is 30.61 mm, other sources mostly round off to 30.6 mm."

I'm sure there is a tolerance for diameter. The key is finding what it is. About three years ago as part of the Summer Seminar I went on the inside tour of the Denver Mint. They were minting nickels that day. I noticed each press had a paper taped onto it with inspection numbers. They were inspecting three things. First was weight, then diameter and then thickness. There was an upper and lower limit for each one. The fact that they inspect the thickness to a tolerance was what caught my eye the most. But there are tolerances to all of these dimensions.

"To me that looks like counting/rolling machine damage. I have never seen that have such an impact on the rim. It is like there are 2 rims! That is what I am so confused about!!"

The Rolling Machine Damage has nothing to do with the rim. The rim at the top of the obverse just has some finning which is common.

The diameter of your coin is only .04mm larger then the given diameter for a half dollar. In inches it is only .0015" larger. This is such a small amount that I feel it is well within the tolerance.
Edited by pyrbob
08/11/2015 06:02 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
3331 Posts
 Posted 08/11/2015  08:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pete2226 to your friends list
I have weighed the coin and it is well with in tolerance: 11.26 g. Measuring the rim: where it is "doubled" it is 2x the width of the rim below the date. The reeding looks normal around the entire circumference. I decided not to try counting the reeds to see if they were all present.

I don't see how this could be anything but a minor MAD. Thanks everyone for your comments which have helped me think about this!
Pillar of the Community
United States
1781 Posts
 Posted 08/11/2015  12:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add koinpro to your friends list
This coin appears to be to be a minor Misaligned Die. These often lead to minor collar clashes that wear away at the ID of the collar and the OD of the die. As far as Wide Collars go, no two coins measure exactly alike. In fact, the same coins will measure different if measured from two different locations on the coin. This is due to collar wear and damage which starts right from the start of minting. As such there is a normal variance.

Variations in diameter are most commonly due to worn collars and coins being run through edge inscription machines after they are struck. Broken Collars are also a rare cause. Other causes are almost non-existent but can occur.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1781 Posts
 Posted 08/11/2015  12:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add koinpro to your friends list
Here is the later cause of an expanded collar. Quite rare in comparison to worn collars.

1978-JFK-Wide-Collar?-Mad?-What-Is-It?
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