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Replies: 22 / Views: 7,990 |
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Rest in Peace
United States
17900 Posts |
If the rules of the game are set up for abuse, they will be abused.
I'm not Joshing.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2408 Posts |
Releasing the X4X coins through the banking system would have resolved all the issues. --> Cash only, no CC points involved --> Banks get the goodwill, new clients maybe --> No rep commissions involved, less greed --> Fewer redemptions - obviously --> Attract collectors, not speculators I can't fault the ones who saw an opportunity to collect travel miles. I do fault the RCM for failing to execute on a really good idea.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
6768 Posts |
Well, it easy to be smart looking backwards. but RCM still should predict this situation. The best solution could be: After initial 3-5 XforX coins, to continue the "inexpensive coins with simple design" program, but setting Face Value as in Bullion: 1oz - $5 1/2 oz - $4 1/4 oz - $3 and the pricing is CAD 20 - 50. In this case no one will redeem CAD 50 priced coin for CAD 5 FV.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2408 Posts |
Quote: Well, it easy to be smart looking backwards. Not really, you still have to look ahead and avoid the same mistake.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5324 Posts |
This program was to attract new customers, which it did but when the RCM finally realized there is 168 million big reasons of future redemptions, that's what caused the stoppage. I don't know of many RCM customers that had reps that would allow 10,000 in purchase and my guess the RCM's computers would red flag a same credit card buying oddles of these coins if not shame on the RCM, 10000 bucks to gain 100 dollars of air miles with all kinds of restrictions.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2984 Posts |
Here is an video of the law student, Avery Campbell, explaining "Manufactured Spending". http://www.ctvnews.ca/video?playlistId=1.3680016Apparently the FV coin program is only one aspect of "manufactured spending". He and another group of people do this on s regular basis with other things. So the free 1st class ticket, hotel stays, etc. are not only from the FV program but other spending. From the article: "There is a large manufactured spending community online, but much of it is hush-hush. Manufactured spending is frowned upon by merchants and credit cards because it's not the way loyalty programs are meant to work. There are inherent costs when someone manufactures spending, such as handling or administrative fees, which are often incurred by the merchant" Campbell, who said he's aware of another "really large program in Canada that's ripe for abuse," admitted that manufactured spending does come at a cost to someone. "Companies want to make profit," said Campbell. "Manufacturing spending hurts their bottom line. Someone has to pay for it at the end of the day and usually it's the seller of the product. And other purchasers of the product who aren't doing manufactured spending have to subsidize for people like me."
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Moderator
 United States
189340 Posts |
Quote:Also notice the American guy in that article who bought $3 million in Presidential dollars for the airline points! Yup. It happened quite a bit down here. This is why we can no longer buy bags of dollars from the US Mint for face value (this was a program created to get them to circulate).
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2408 Posts |
Quote: 10000 bucks to gain 100 dollars of air miles with all kinds of restrictions. Actually, the equation works more like ZERO bucks to gain 100 dollars of air miles. And if it can be done...
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5324 Posts |
It can be done but not as described in the article, was just at one of the larger GTA GM dealers, salesman told me that had a customer purchase a 30,000 car with all new BNS, GM visa points, there is no limits on how many GM points to redeem on a auto purchase but in order to get 30,000 points you have to spend 3 million on your visa
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2984 Posts |
Quote: Most credit cards are 1% reward so in order to gain a 2000.00 dollar flight you would , need 200,000 worth of x for x coins can't see how an individual was able to buy such amount. From a BBC article, it is explained how he did it. You are right, he did not go the route of 1% rewards. He did it through something called credit card churning. Credit card companies often offer 15,000, 20,000, 30,000 points when signing up and spending xx$ amounts within a time period. These point are good enough for a flight. Also, you do not need to spend hundreds of thousands on coins to do it. Usually you need only to spend $2000 to $5000 within a few months to get the points. By credit card churning, that means cancelling your credit card when you get your points and re-applying and doing it again and again. You could do it with different credit cards at the same time. In this case, the guy was redeeming the coins at the bank to pay off the credit card bill he used for buying the coins. So he got the points for free. From the BBC article: Avery Campbell, 24, uses a strategy called "manufactured spending", which means shopping just to earn points on credit-card rewards programmes. Recently he bought coins from the Canada Mint to collect points, then used the same coins to pay his bills. The scheme has helped him travel to "every inhabited continent" - sometimes first-class - for little or no money. "I have pretty darn good credit," he told the BBC while waiting to board a flight to Chicago where he will be attending a manufactured spending conference. Manufactured spending works when customers are able to buy something on their credit cards that can be used like cash, collecting points essentially for free. Mr Campbell uses these loopholes to help him do something called "credit-card churn", which is when you sign up for a new credit card in exchange for a large amount of reward points. Most credit-card companies have a minimum amount a customer must spend in order to qualify for the points. In the case of the Canadian Mint, Mr Campbell was able to collect points from buying the collectors coins on his credit card, then pay back that same purchase using the legal tender. These purchases helped him meet his minimum spend quickly, and without incurring debt. The British Airways flight would have cost about C$400 ($314, £238), he says, but he used his points. This time he flew coach, but he has travelled first-class on Lufthansa and Emirates airlines.
Edited by MoneyPenney 11/17/2017 10:26 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5324 Posts |
On the CBC articles he infers that he is travelling all over in first class, even to get 5000 bucks of x for x coins you had to have been one of the super reps who would allow such volume, but all the power to him for manipulating the system. I found most of these air mile reward cards comes with a lot of rules and restriction
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
2360 Posts |
I know they minted a pile of these coins, but I have to wonder about the number of redemptions. What proportion of coins still remain in collectors hands? Is is possible to tell, are they tracking the coins redeemed. Are some 200 for 200 or 50 for 50 harder to find now?
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5324 Posts |
The article mentions the RCM sold about 180 million bucks of these coins, you just have to see the last 3 years or so of annual reports and you will get a good idea of how much has been redeemed.
Edited by john100 11/18/2017 08:26 am
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Rest in Peace
Canada
1360 Posts |
John100... do you know if the redemption amount has been published? You would think that in the annual report, they would report on this failure too. Otherwise, an FOI request is in order.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5324 Posts |
I believe there was some mention of this number and kind of the reason for the RCM to stop the program in the year before the x for x ending, the RCM should know that the majority of these coins were sold in Canada as such at some point incur a massive redemption along with associated bank fees and shipping, and production cost to boot
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Replies: 22 / Views: 7,990 |
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