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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
Perhaps Coin and Banknote magazine is only read by 5% of Australia's coin community. Then again most coin collectors don't read anything at all (be it CAB, CCF, ACF, McDonalds or Renniks). That is what the con-men rely on. As for it being a paid magazine? They are hardly likely to give it away for free. If you don't already purchase CAB on a regular basis then you are missing out on the latest research on many aspects of pre-decimals (usually at least one good article on pre decimal each month) and that puts you in the 95% who are ignorant of the research. When I wrote the TPGs make errors and ignore the research of experts I wasn't referring to graders and dealers in Australia but to experts on the various pre decimals (most of whom are collectors and NOT dealers). The experts usually know FAR more than the dealers about the subject (that is how we pick up bargains  ). Most dealers just turn over inventory and just have a basic knowledge of what the dates/grades are, the experts are those who have spent thousands of hours studying a particular date or series and usually have a good reference collection that is more extensive than either the dealers or TPGs have. So you think NGC and PCGS are the holy gospel?  they hardly even know the Australian coins and I have at least a dozen NGC/PCGS slabs where they REALLY messed up (like a 1951PLthreepence graded as Melbourne). They cannot even agree between them as to whether a coin is PR or MS (I have a Centenary florin in a NGC slab that is MS, but if I sent it to PCGS they would grade it PR). As for any dealer bowing to the NGC/PCGS that is absolute rubbish. Many a time I've seen dealers offer several coins of the same date etc and of the same grade but with different prices purely based on the marketability (mostly eye appeal) of the different coins. As an example Eric (Drake Sterling) has 2 shillings in 1946P PCGS MS64 slabs but with prices of $950 and $1250. I guess Eric (one of the biggest PCGS dealers in Australia) doesn't bow down to PCGS in his pricing. |
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Valued Member
 269 Posts |
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Perhaps Coin and Banknote magazine is only read by 5% of Australia's coin community. Then again most coin collectors don't read anything at all I agree Quote:
As for it being a paid magazine? They are hardly likely to give it away for free. If you don't already purchase CAB on a regular basis then you are missing out on the latest research on many aspects of pre-decimals (usually at least one good article on pre decimal each month) and that puts you in the 95% who are ignorant of the research. I agree that 100-5=95 Quote:
When I wrote the TPGs make errors and ignore the research of experts I wasn't referring to graders and dealers in Australia but to experts on the various pre decimals (most of whom are collectors and NOT dealers). The experts usually know FAR more than the dealers about the subject (that is how we pick up bargains). I agree Quote:
Most dealers just turn over inventory and just have a basic knowledge of what the dates/grades are, the experts are those who have spent thousands of hours studying a particular date or series and usually have a good reference collection that is more extensive than either the dealers or TPGs have. PCGS and NGC have good libraries - but you might be right. Quote:
So you think NGC and PCGS are the holy gospel? Basically yes. Quote:
they hardly even know the Australian coins and I have at least a dozen NGC/PCGS slabs where they REALLY messed up (like a 1951PLthreepence graded as Melbourne). They cannot even agree between them as to whether a coin is PR or MS (I have a Centenary florin in a NGC slab that is MS, but if I sent it to PCGS they would grade it PR).
As for any dealer bowing to the NGC/PCGS that is absolute rubbish. Many a time I've seen dealers offer several coins of the same date etc and of the same grade but with different prices purely based on the marketability (mostly eye appeal) of the different coins. We all make mistakes. Quote:
As an example Eric (Drake Sterling) has 2 shillings in 1946P PCGS MS64 slabs but with prices of $950 and $1250. I guess Eric (one of the biggest PCGS dealers in Australia) doesn't bow down to PCGS in his pricing. I don't know him, but he sounds ever so clever. # Cheers and have a great day. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
No worries CoinOS, we are both passionate about collecting and I suppose that makes us seem abrasive in our discussions as we thrash out the topic. Cheers to you too.
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Valued Member
269 Posts |
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I suppose that makes us seem abrasive in our discussions "It is only through dialogue, deep listening, and passionate disagreement that we find our way to something larger than a singular and isolated point of view." - Henry Kimsey-House I have one to show you:  When I seen that my only thought was it's well priced and reasonably good for $100. Then I zoomed in and seen the Emu head dot and other things. Are those the same marks you red-flagged on other examples of this date? [Their website (wynyard) has zoom view]. Thanks |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
The Wynyard shilling doesn't match the suspect shillings. The dot in front of the emu is very similar (but slightly different) and the fakes have a scratch to the right of the federation star as well as a scratch below 19. Not a bad genuine (?*) example, good for a mid grade collection or for a comparison piece.
What is interesting is that the higher grade example that Wynyard is offering also has a dot in front of the emus head that is also very similar. But $1750 seems steep.
The ?* is because it is getting harder to be sure if any coin is genuine. The fakers now have multiple obverse dies to choose from (I have 3 and that doesn't mean that there are no others) and they may have tweaked their dies and techniques.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
UPDATE
Have just got the results back on 2 of the fake shillings (1911 and 1916). Both were graded MS65. Their numbers are 35021221 and 25021222 and I currently have a second example (raw) of each on my desk with matching scratches and other minute defects.
Have also identified a fake 1917 shilling with the same obverse die as a 1914 fake. It has a die crack through IND IMP.
So now have certain fakes for 1911, 1914, 1916, 1917 and 1925 shillings, plus a 1923 threepence.
Fred Lever and myself covered one particular obverse die in the recent issue of Coin and Banknote magazine.
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Valued Member
Australia
145 Posts |
Obverse on these coins are not the same.Last pair of pearls on the right are not the same.Look at the the star on the ebay coin.Also the toning on ebay coin looks like a 24hour tone.I bet my left testicle its a fake. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
1333 Posts |
Hi I see that this is a lively topic being dicussed. Great discussion. As for the finning on the coins believe that quite common on early Australian silver coins. Non-expert but that 1911 shilling post on 18th, colouration goes against it, however the age marks/streaks for it as being genuine, but the rim only being worn like that o.o.
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Valued Member
269 Posts |
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Both were graded MS65. Their numbers are 35021221 and 25021222 Yes those are numbers - no doubt about it. Do they mean something? ebay / TPG / lotto? .. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
They are the PCGS certification numbers (and I mistyped a 3 as a 2, should be 35021222). You can use those images to compare to your own shillings to see if any minor defect matches (like the scratch below left of the date on the 1911 shilling matches the same scratch on several other coins in this thread).
These 2 fake shillings have 2 different obverses to the 4 examples in the recent Coin and Banknote Magazine article. The 1911 reverse has been paired with 2 different obverse dies, that being the one in the PCGS image and the image in the CAB article.
If you do have any shillings (or spot examples being listed/sold) that matches either the obverse or reverse die then please post the image as a database is being built up. The obverse dies may turn up in the known fake dates (1911,1914,1916,1917 and 1925) or in any other date.
Edited by nealeffendi
04/26/2018 05:58 am
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Valued Member
269 Posts |
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They are the PCGS certification numbers (and I mistyped a 3 as a 2, should be 35021222). No they are not.35021222 on PCGS is invalid. 35021221 on PCGS is invalid. 25021222 on PCGS is a USA nickel. No offence - but how tough is it to type a number? |
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Valued Member
269 Posts |
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If you do have any shillings (or spot examples being listed/sold) that matches either the obverse or reverse die then please post the image as a database is being built up. The obverse dies may turn up in the known fake dates (1911,1914,1916,1917 and 1925) or in any other date. You and others here made a case here but published the photos we need in some magazine that very few have seen. Simply - No. Doesn't work that way. I do have news and until your posts make sense - it will remain private. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
Those images have now been pulled by PCGS (I had them contacted and informed of the issue). PCGS correctly acted promptly and they are now officially designated as counterfeit.
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Valued Member
269 Posts |
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Those images have now been pulled by PCGS (I had them contacted and informed of the issue). PCGS correctly acted promptly and they are now officially designated as counterfeit. I don't know what coins you are referring to when you speak about MS65 grades, you haven't told us. You indicated you had purchased three coins from Canada but refused to share a decent image of them here. Your PCGS numbers returned nothing and were not even typed correctly - so I see no point to posting them. You speak of a fake 1923 threepence, no idea which one that is supposed to be. Possibly you refer to a coin in Spain which you have never seen. I believe in explaining things clearly and thoroughly but what I am seeing here is very disappointing. Quote:
and they are now officially designated as counterfeit. There is no such thing as an official counterfeit designation by any TPG. Edited by CoinOS
04/26/2018 08:21 am
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Valued Member
269 Posts |
ryu Quote:
this is a lively topic being dicussed. Great discussion As the topic's creator I have read every post with care. What I have seen is arrogance, presumption, guesswork and evasive nonsense together with quality input from some people. The key images needed have not been put on CCF and never will be. That is more of a mystery than the topic's title. Cheers. Edited by CoinOS
04/26/2018 08:43 am
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Posted 03/17/2018 4:56 pm
