Australia Predecimal Coinage. Serious Questions Of Authenticity.

The scratch is a die defect.

Yes three - all found and first mentioned by a hawk eyed member of this forum - me.

The first I don't like his price, so he can keep it.

The second at Heritage I will put in a bid..

- and the third is mine and currently with NGC




Are they? Only one person here has spoken to the sellers so far I as know and that is me.

Evil? If a seller has made a reasonable effort to determine that his/her item is genuine, there is no evil whatsoever.
You don't know if he knows or not, although you will say you do based on your belief that he is selling numerous alleged fakes. The 1923 3d is one coin you would cite - and you would be wrong. That coin is genuine.

I decided to look at the situ very closely and invest a few hundred hours of research for two reasons. 1. I enjoy the challenge and 2. I don't call a seller a criminal unless I am certain they are - to do so prematurely is despicable.




Those top two coins are not weak strikes.

That is not a dual rim, the coins exhibit finning which is common.


No coin imaged above has a lack of detail - quite the opposite.




10-4




Your knowledge and powers of observation continue to amaze me.

- from you in the variety and error forum thread:



I politely asked you for photographic evidence of that.

It also seems you paid over six hundred dollars for three shillings from Canada that you now hold to be counterfeits. I offered you six hundred dollars for them to further my research.




There are no common bag marks on these shillings.
That crack is no bag mark.




That is common knowledge and I'd be concerned if they didn't make the odd mistake.

Cheers and have a great day.

You are right that The Royal Mint dies came from working hubs, and you are obviously right about the relief / incuse.
Exactly what they did back then is lost to history.




Fakes of that quality have no precedent in Australian coinage to my knowledge and do have value to collectors of anomalies or researchers.




No. That is what coin dealers do.




Look forward to reading that.




That's up to you, I have full awareness they are suspicious to many people, but it's not really an issue.

That Canadian auction photo is really small - I see a 1911, 1914 and a 1916 there.
Does the 1911 have the same die defect / hub defect / line / scratch? thing at the bottom too?

If you don't want to publish that here, I suppose it will be in your forthcoming expose, but I am curious.

I wonder why a master counterfeiter would bother with a 1911 shilling?
1912's are much harder to find and are more valuable.

There is no 'Don't trust NGC and PCGS' because millions of dollars of coins are bought and sold monthly at prices based solely on what they say.

Like it or not and regardless of your expertise, in the current game - they hold the royal flush and are the final arbiters. Basically they are God.

Forgive me for showing a trace of attitude or annoyance, but it's frustrating when I can't see photos that I need to examine.

Cheers!

Fair enough.

[Image removed]

There are any number of possibilities to explain incuse scratches and hairlines. The dot and Cud theories are meaningless.

Those are superb MS examples if real and davinci's if counterfeits with no match in Australian counterfeit history - obviously they have value.

I spoke to Heritage auctions and discussed my concerns with them. They have pulled that coin from the upcoming auction and are re-submitting it to NGC for closer scrutiny.

They have looked at all this and decided that the matter is inconclusive - entirely reasonable to any sound mind.

The final determinations will be made by NGC and PCGS, and not by anyone here.

Affirmative

You have made some weird comments:
Firstly: I see things like this from you here:
"Are you hoping to cash in on the PCGS guarantee?"

That is both an insult and is not especially bright.
Every coin dealer in Australia - including the owner of the
other forum, at which your friends here are moderators does have their income largely decided by the holy gospel of PCGS and NGC.
They bow to PCGS and price their goods accordingly.


.

Yes TPG's make errors, and Australian coin graders and dealers make a thousand times more.
I don't know many decent coin graders/dealers in Australia, maybe one or two I like.
Most of them consistently disappoint me.




I'm not speculating on that outcome.

You had your chance to post the images of the two shillings you claimed were identical to the one I purchased from Spain and you refused to put them here... so I don't believe you, simple as that.

You instead have elected to post an expose in an upcoming paid magazine that is read by less than 5% of Australia's coin community.
We will all run to the newsagent and pay 8 bucks to read it.
(I doubt these 'identicals' will be there either).

You believe who you want, I believe NGC and I will wait for their opinion after the re-submission.

The one I bought will be back soon and if it's graded, it'll be sold when it suits me. If it comes back no good I won't sell it. Either way I don't give a darn to be honest, 300 won't hurt me.

Bye

Perhaps Coin and Banknote magazine is only read by 5% of Australia's coin community. Then again most coin collectors don't read anything at all (be it CAB, CCF, ACF, McDonalds or Renniks). That is what the con-men rely on.
As for it being a paid magazine? They are hardly likely to give it away for free. If you don't already purchase CAB on a regular basis then you are missing out on the latest research on many aspects of pre-decimals (usually at least one good article on pre decimal each month) and that puts you in the 95% who are ignorant of the research.
When I wrote the TPGs make errors and ignore the research of experts I wasn't referring to graders and dealers in Australia but to experts on the various pre decimals (most of whom are collectors and NOT dealers). The experts usually know FAR more than the dealers about the subject (that is how we pick up bargains). Most dealers just turn over inventory and just have a basic knowledge of what the dates/grades are, the experts are those who have spent thousands of hours studying a particular date or series and usually have a good reference collection that is more extensive than either the dealers or TPGs have.
So you think NGC and PCGS are the holy gospel? they hardly even know the Australian coins and I have at least a dozen NGC/PCGS slabs where they REALLY messed up (like a 1951PLthreepence graded as Melbourne). They cannot even agree between them as to whether a coin is PR or MS (I have a Centenary florin in a NGC slab that is MS, but if I sent it to PCGS they would grade it PR).
As for any dealer bowing to the NGC/PCGS that is absolute rubbish. Many a time I've seen dealers offer several coins of the same date etc and of the same grade but with different prices purely based on the marketability (mostly eye appeal) of the different coins. As an example Eric (Drake Sterling) has 2 shillings in 1946P PCGS MS64 slabs but with prices of $950 and $1250. I guess Eric (one of the biggest PCGS dealers in Australia) doesn't bow down to PCGS in his pricing.

No worries CoinOS, we are both passionate about collecting and I suppose that makes us seem abrasive in our discussions as we thrash out the topic. Cheers to you too.