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Lower Canada Bust & Harp 1/2 Penny Token 1820/5

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Canada
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 Posted 11/08/2018  4:26 pm  Show Profile   Check NumisCat's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NumisCat to your friends list
This appears to be genuine. Can't see any red flags from the photo...

Edited to removed initial unbridled enthusiasm.
Edited by NumisCat
11/08/2018 9:08 pm
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Canada
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 Posted 11/08/2018  7:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wade to your friends list
I have some reservations about this piece (I hope for pawnbroker and the community as a whole that I am wrong)

some very clear pictures of the date would do wonders,

IF legit you are $10,000+ richer.

Please post clear, focused, enlarged photos of the date.
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 Posted 11/08/2018  11:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dorado to your friends list
To the Forum.
Rest in Peace
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 Posted 11/09/2018  06:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bpoc1 to your friends list
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 Posted 11/09/2018  08:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pawnbroker to your friends list
Just sent the token out to NGC to be graded and slabbed. Anxiously awaiting what they have to say about it.
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 Posted 11/09/2018  10:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JimmyD to your friends list
pawnbroker-
Be sure to let us know the results either way.
This could be an interesting piece to study.
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 Posted 11/09/2018  10:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list
Interesting find.
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 Posted 11/28/2018  08:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pawnbroker to your friends list
Token was sent to NGC for grading and authentication. Was shipped back to me on Monday . Anticipate receiving it on Thursday. It came back as a grade of VF20 BN. Quite happy with the grading.
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 Posted 11/28/2018  7:27 pm  Show Profile   Check NumisCat's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NumisCat to your friends list
That is a spectacular find. Congratulations.
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 Posted 11/28/2018  7:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JimmyD to your friends list
Congratulations!!
There are very few of those known to exist.
Nice when someone in the CCF has a find like that.

FYI-
The book price on that coin in VF is $12,000 CDN.
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 Posted 11/29/2018  03:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TerryT to your friends list
Speechless , so I typed it and put a Smiley.

Quote from Charlton 7th Edition token catalogue.
"In 1825 a halfpenny token was struck in Great Britain on Canadian order. It was learned that currency regulations enacted in 1825 forbade the further importation of private tokens into Canada. However, nothing in the regulations interfered with importing tokens dated before 1825."

and they simply used a zero punch. Easy Peasy.
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 Posted 11/30/2018  5:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ainsivalavie to your friends list

Quote:
Token was sent to NGC for grading and authentication. Was shipped back to me on Monday . Anticipate receiving it on Thursday. It came back as a grade of VF20 BN. Quite happy with the grading.


Maybe your token is authentic, I couldn't confirm. However, NGC is not at all qualified for the evaluation of Canadian colonial tokens. I have seen so many minor and major mistakes from them over the years regarding these coins, that their opinion on your token is in no way conclusive.

You should have chosen a Canadian company (CCCS/ICCS). Their expertise has more weight with collectors of this type of coin.
I'm sorry if my English isn't perfect... I'm learning a little more every day.
Edited by ainsivalavie
11/30/2018 5:44 pm
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 Posted 11/30/2018  9:35 pm  Show Profile   Check NumisCat's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NumisCat to your friends list
*NGC guarantees the authenticity of the items they certify. They have a knowledgeable staff of experts. It is not a one-man operation. Plus, at least one of the companies you referred the OP to has been found within the past two years to have certified more than one fake Canadian coin. In one instance the mistake was blatant. As far as I know, those companies do not provide any sort of guarantee, but I could be wrong.

While NGC (and all other grading companies) are known to make mistakes with respect to variety attribution, I think the OP can rest assured the coin is the real deal. Also, the pictures provided do not raise any red flags. No point in being an alarmist or disparaging people for choosing that particular service.
Edited by NumisCat
11/30/2018 9:37 pm
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Canada
221 Posts
 Posted 11/30/2018  9:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ainsivalavie to your friends list

Quote:
*NGC guarantees the authenticity of the items they certify. They have a knowledgeable staff of experts. It is not a one-man operation. Plus, at least one of the companies you referred the OP to has been found within the past two years to have certified more than one fake Canadian coin. In one instance the mistake was blatant. As far as I know, those companies do not provide any sort of guarantee, but I could be wrong.

While NGC (and all other grading companies) are known to make mistakes with respect to variety attribution, I think the OP can rest assured the coin is the real deal. Also, the pictures provided do not raise any red flags. No point in being an alarmist or disparaging people for choosing that particular service.


I don't think I was an alarmist. And far be it from me to want to be despicable. I may have some difficulties with the subtleties of the English language in writing, but I don't think that was the case in my previous comment. If yes, I'm sorry.



No company is error-free, of course. However, some have much more experience than others in evaluating certain types of coins.

Regarding Canadian colonial tokens, while NGC may have several evaluators, if none of them have the necessary experience in authenticating and grading this type of coin, we are no further ahead. Otherwise, NGC can do a very good job with Canadian and American coins in general.

Two examples among many:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/can...3064-29387.s
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/1844-Bank-o...222903384626

Or an MS example becomes Specimen (At least the second evaluation was the right one):
https://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/can...3014-26380.s
https://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/can...3064-29518.s

The opposite is also true:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/pro...3064-29519.s

I think I have given enough examples on this point.

And I don't even dare talk about grading, where on this point, with maybe the exception of uncirculated colonial tokens, NGC is terrible. Not to mention its difficulty in identifying a multitude of varieties (I am thinking for example of PC-6B).

NGC is not the only company with this problem. But in my experience, it is the worst of the most "famous" regarding Canadian colonial tokens.

However, I thought NGC's warranty was limited to American coins. When I look at it in more detail, I find that I was wrong. But that doesn't change what I was saying.
*I wonder about their point #6:
Quote:
Third Party Information and Attributions. Information listed on a label that originates from a third party (including, without limitation, any information from the U.S. Mint) and any attributions (including variety attributions, reference attributions and pedigree attributions) are NOT guaranteed. NGC will attribute those varieties that it deems, in its sole reasonably exercised opinion, to be major varieties that are widely collected and accepted as legitimate varieties by the Coin collecting community at the time the Coin is graded. New information may cause NGC to no longer recognize an attribution that it previously assigned, which, again, is not covered by the NGC Guarantee. NGC does not guarantee that a particular variety or designation will always be recognized, and attribution policies are subject to change without notice. Further, NGC's calculation of a Coin's Fair Market Value will be based on a generic example of the Coin at the original grade without any variety, reference or pedigree attribution.




But at the end, if it is only about money, the guarantee offered by NGC should be sufficient for the one who owns the token.

Also I repeat, it is quite possible that the token at the origin of this subject may be authentic. I don't have enough experience on this series of tokens to comment on this point. And if that's the case, it's indeed a great discovery.

*Sorry for my syntax errors
I'm sorry if my English isn't perfect... I'm learning a little more every day.
Edited by ainsivalavie
11/30/2018 10:37 pm
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