Ebay: Counterfeit Conspiracy.

Counterfeit coinage is not something new, nor will it disappear. Although in recent years with globalization and the advent of technologies where one can buy things and receive them quickly the volume increased dramatically. Politics have also played a larger roll in these fakes entering our financial market and hobby. As pointed out by another member, the powers that be simply can not prevent this from happening or continuing. At best we can only hope it be slowed by cracking down hard on the known "mints" within Chinese borders. A simple Google search lead me to a page of photographs with a well written article. So surely the government knows this as well. Strengthening our customs agency at home would be the most effective.

As for ebay, there are two rules I follow before even bidding. The first, if it is a known coin high on the counterfeiter's list I buy only TPG coins. Even though these too are counterfeited it lessens the chance of being deceived. The second, even with listings from reputable dealers, I click on their link and look at their buying record. If they buy a lot from Asia or Europe I pass. Slabbed or not.

ebay, as a company, exists to make money. No other reason. For that, I do not fault them. Where I do have an issue is their functionality as such. By that, I refer back to my second rule in the previous paragraph. To my knowledge every internet based company has a commuter system and network designed to protect them from unscrupulous individuals. I am 100% certain that algorythums exist which can monitor these same types of activity. Where the seller/listing originates, where transactions occur and the frequency of each. These in turn are compared to feedback ratings and replies, both from the feedback page and contact seller link. So, as most have stated, ebay employees are turning a blind eye to an increasing epidemic.

I commend the staff and leadership of this site for their never-ending commitment to help protect the hobby. I for one thank each of you for such.

0 available 1000 sold
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Silver-Mor...202548738791

It's not a problem. We don't have to worry at all.

From the original post:



ebay's business model is to be the world's largest platform for connecting buyers and sellers.
They have no more interest in weeding out counterfeits than someone who leases stalls at a flea market.

I imagine their legal department has provided good guidance on exactly how much policing they need to do to avoid running afoul of U.S. law. Their shareholders should not be interested in their spending a single penny more than it takes to do that.

Yes, that results in uncertainty for collectors of certain kinds of coins. On the other hand, ebay has undeniably improved availability and cost for collectors, too.

I see no risk of ebay destroying the hobby. Collectors who get burned will move to buying from places that stand behind the authenticity of their products. Yes, they will pay more for that assurance. And a lot of collectors will blissfully continue buying there, never knowing they got burned.

To those who do not know me here. I have FOUGHT ebay tooth and nail to get the policies we have now. Not the Canadian Gov't. Myself and one then Sgt. in the RCMP. For Years. Blaming ebay for counterfeits is just silly. I was even involved as a Canadian with the USA House of Representatives when they were looking at ways to put teeth in the Hobby Protection Act. PCGS was very generous with an award when I successfully had the largest counterfeit coin and bullion website (at the time) literally remove 40,000 fake coins and slabs permanently.

I have come to realize than numismatists are their on worst enemy's. Here is an article I wrote for Canadian Coin News a few years ago.

One simple question.....Are you part of the problem.

Counterfeits are here to stay! Are you part of the problem?

Counterfeit coins have been around as long as coins have. For a very long time I have attempted to thwart the efforts of those who attempt to profit from them. While some major victories have been won the proliferation of this bane to our hobby continue at an alarming rate. All we can do is educate ourselves as well as others and be constantly vigilante in our numismatic transactions. This is where we as numismatists have become our own worst enemy. The competition to acquire new material or snatch up a "real deal" or "cherry pick" an item from say for example Kijiji or ebay, caution and or common sense may not be used. The naive or inexperienced are most vulnerable at this time. That is not who I am aiming this instalment at. I hope that the inexperienced save this article and use the examples given and markers presented to assist them in identifying counterfeit coins coming from China. What I am really hoping is that the more experienced collectors and dealers realize that their reactions to counterfeit material may well harm the hobby as much as the fake coins themselves.

I will bet that every person reading this has told a friend of an amazing purchase or cherry pick or had a story of this told to them by a fellow collector. Now the real question! How many have told the story of being duped by a fake or have had that story told to them? I will bet that only the most intimate of friends share these stories or they are among the very few who like me believe that the sharing of scenarios gone bad educates all who are informed and may well prevent future crimes. Too many times I have had people tell me that "It is the price of doing business," or "I chalked it up to a learning experience." Almost every dealer/pawn shop owner I have ever spoken to have "education pieces" that they have been duped with. Again the two phrases above are used. But did the duped individuals notify the police? In some cases yes. It was nice to see the article in CCN about the fake bullion and the arrests made. This is the exception not the norm. The reasoning for not wanting to divulge the fact that they whether a dealer or collector have acquired counterfeit coins is complex.

Lets look at the motives:

a) Embarrassment. Absorbing the loss seems more beneficial than the loss of face in other collector or dealers eyes.

b) Recompense. If I involve the police I will be unable to recoup my losses either from the seller or by flipping it claiming ignorance. (this one falls more on the opportunist and not dealer/collector base).

c) Ethics. This one I always shake my head at. "Well I only offered peanuts for a multiple thousand dollar coin if real." As if the circumstance that the coin was fake negates the fact that the buyer attempted to acquire a very valuable coin for a minuscule amount. I do not feel sorry for this individual as they are no better than the fraudster by attempting to take advantage of someone while they themselves were duped by greed.

Every one of these motives actually harm the hobby. The lack of dissemination of information whether locally via local clubs, the press and police or nationally on coin chat groups or again in the press (CCN) hurts each and every one of us. Education is paramount. You are doing no one any good by being silent. Another may get duped by the same seller or scenario. If a duped individual leaves the hobby we all suffer in the end. The only people benefiting from silence is the fraudsters. If a fraudster does it once. Shame on him. If he/she does it twice. It is our own fault so shame on us. Are you part of the problem?

Here is a scenario which transpired right here in Trenton (my home town) within the last two weeks. It involves every thing mentioned and will demonstrate that acceptance of fraud and silence only breeds more of the same.

I was contacted by an individual (the opportunist) to authenticate a few 25 cent coins. 1875H and 1889. From the images provided there was no doubt to me that they were made in China. I met the individual to inform them in person that they were indeed fake. It turns out there were two of each date. I was then asked to look at images of an 1858 large cent this individual purchased previously from the same original seller but had subsequently sold at a profit apparently some time in the past. It was counterfeit as well. The individual who purchased the now flipped counterfeit 1858 simply chalked the counterfeit up as a learning experience and the price of doing business. Sound familiar? If the secondary buyer of the 1858 had gone public would it have made a difference? I believe so. The opportunist would never have purchased the 25 cent coins after unknowingly buying a fake 1858. The original fraudster would not have continued selling fake coins which my investigation has learned includes 1948 dollars as well.
The scenario was allowed to play out for all the wrong reasons.

Are you part of the problem?

In closing today's rant. What this site (Bobby and NSS)do is wonderful and very time consuming. But all the words of support and gratitude do little. Get involved. Educate yourself and others. Fight for your hobby. Do not expect big business to do it.

Mike Marshall

well spoken words, for everyone to take a moment to read..

How can one seller be allowed to continue selling on ebay when they have had over 100 counterfeit coins removed by ebay during the past 21 months?

I sent APMEX a message asking for better photos of a 1882 PCGS PR65BR Indian cent because I couldn't see the coin they were selling in their pictures. This was their response.

"New message from: APMEX Top Rated Seller(406,399RedShooting Star)
Thank you for contacting APMEX. We have updated the listing with additional images. Please note that due to our large inventory as well as typically having multiples for listings, we use stock photos taken by our photography team. The coin received will match the quality and specifications of the coin shown, but will not be the exact coin. Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.

Thank you and have a good day!

APMEX Customer Service "

This is ebay's policy:
"Include a clear picture of the actual item being sold - don't use stock photos"

I know I am wasting my time trying to talk to either of them, but I am going to anyway. Just so I can feel better about myself for not being proactive.

I will NEVER buy from APMEX again.

Ed

to the Community, aCopper!