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 Replies: 20 / Views: 2,540 |
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Moderator
 United States
189647 Posts |
Very interesting. I am not sure which I prefer, which just reminds me that I am not a serious note collector.  |
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Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
5177 Posts |
The difference in the background of Ben Franklin's portrait is striking, but could probably also be an artifact of differences in scanner resolution.
That aside, however, I probably would have kept the chopmark anyway (assuming I could afford a National $100 in the first place, which I couldn't).
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4637 Posts |
The biggest difference, to me, is when I compare the boldness of the ink on "The Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City Missouri" to the left of the portrait on both notes. During the removal of the chopmark, this printed area faded a bit.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2703 Posts |
I see what you mean. Also the Js are very noticeably washed out and the bar under the George Henry Hamilton's signature has lost a lot of ink.
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
150 Posts |
Are the paper fibres on the surface of the note disturbed, I wonder, especially in the area where the mark was present?
For $75, your note may well have been resized after being cleaned.
I have always been against cleaning or repair of notes. Apart from anything else, they annoy me by their appearance. It is not a natural thing to happen to a currency note!
I only ever bought a cleaned note twice:
The first time, very early on when I was a novice collector, from a respectable London dealer, who in fairness, hinted at UNC but did not actually grade the note - a pressed EF pretending to be an UNC, which was pointed out by another dealer subsequently.
I learned how to grade after that ;)
The second instance was a very rare note which I was missing and was quite obviously washed, but if you don't have a rarity you buy it! This note doesn't annoy me when I look at it in the album.
I have only seen one other example since then.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
825 Posts |
So he used some kind of chemical wash to bleach the entire note, along with the chop mark. Is there any way to remove ink in a specific area without leaving a light patch? (Not that I would try this, I'm just curious.)
Edited by GregAlex
11/09/2021 8:38 pm
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
150 Posts |
Quote:
Is there any way to remove ink in a specific area without leaving a light patch? Not to my knowledge. Any instances of spot cleaning will likely either remove the sizing of the note in that area, leaving a portion of the surface of the note which is 'different' (not necessarily lighter) in texture to the rest of the surface, or an abraised area. Damage of this kind would be easily seen if the note is examined at an oblique angle to the light. This stuff was fashionable in the 1970s. A lot of notes were damaged in those days by cleaning. Sometimes notes were left with the scent of bleach or some similar substance. Other times the person cleaning the note would use too high a concentration of cleaning agent and the note would disintegrate! I came across one such note on ebay a few years back on ebay, from a batch of quite scarce notes which had mould. Cleaning was attempted and the result was a disintegration of some parts of the note! The note had been up previously prior to cleaning and I had a scan of it saved. It is now a good example of why to not clean notes. Regarding the $100 in the original post, in my experience a circulated note like that one would have microscopic dirt ingrained on its corners. If the dirt is not present, that would be a good indicator of possible immersion in a liquid. Curiously, I have come across an instance of a note graded as CU62 (again on ebay), with the following on the reverse of the info slip: "Comments: Rare in UNC! removed ink spot-back". A cleaned note cannot be UNC imho, AU55 at the very best. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
Must disagree. Like coins, notes without "original surfaces" are often graded uncirculated with qualifications.
Edited by Coinfrog
11/09/2021 9:20 pm
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Moderator
United States
189647 Posts |
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For $75, your note may well have been resized after being cleaned ... Any instances of spot cleaning will likely either remove the sizing of the note in that area Can I assume by (re)sizing you are referring to the same material process used in fabrics to fill, strengthen, protect, and otherwise alter the feel of the material? |
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
150 Posts |
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Can I assume by (re)sizing you are referring to the same material process used in fabrics to fill, strengthen, protect, and otherwise alter the feel of the material? Yes, the process was described to me once by a dealer who was planing to clean a note before selling it to me. Rather horrifying, as it was quite a rare note - I assured him that I wanted the note in its original condition. Quote:
Must disagree. Like coins, notes without "original surfaces" are often graded uncirculated with qualifications. We'll agree to differ on that one. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4637 Posts |
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Regarding the $100 in the original post, in my experience a circulated note like that one would have microscopic dirt ingrained on its corners. If the dirt is not present, that would be a good indicator of possible immersion in a liquid. If someone were to trim the note, wouldn't that also remove the ingrained contaminants from the corners ? |
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
150 Posts |
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If someone were to trim the note, wouldn't that also remove the ingrained contaminants from the corners ? Yes, but you can often spot that, as the corners on the trimmed note might then be too sharp for the grade of the note! I have noticed that corners pick up wear very easily. As an example, I have some spare UNC Irish notes that I kept from circulation since the 1990s - they were perfect when I kept them, obtained from blocks and carefully screened for 4 sharp corners [I have looked at lots of corners in my time, need a magnifyer now though - eyesight ain't what it used to be!]. On recent examination, the odd one amongst these has had a corner which has become knocked in storage. They might still grade as 64 (I have seen instances of Irish notes grades as 64 with one or more rounded corners) and are unused, but now AU-UNC imho. |
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Moderator
United States
189647 Posts |
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Yes, the process was described to me once by a dealer who was planing to clean a note before selling it to me. Thank you!  Quote:
Rather horrifying, as it was quite a rare note - I assured him that I wanted the note in its original condition. Good call.  |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2578 Posts |
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On recent examination, the odd one amongst these has had a corner which has become knocked in storage. They might still grade as 64 (I have seen instances of Irish notes grades as 64 with one or more rounded corners) and are unused, but now AU-UNC imho. -I suspect that's what happened to many of my notes (bumped/blunted corners) which I had bought as "Choice" (or better) but were certified later as "UNC60" by BCS. It was a serious let-down but I was the only one to blame for my minor handling (knocking my notes down in grades). I just want to add re: washed/processed notes, that initially, these washings/pressed or processing DIDN'T bother me much. But later on, as the years passed, a pressed or altered note started to grate on me. After getting mostly fresh-pack UNC (see the vibrant hues & crispy clear under-prints) I began comparing side-by-side & my expectations began to shift (in a good way). I started to view altered notes (with fuzzy micro-prints or poor/thin lettering) far more cynically. It finally became a deal-breaker & I very rarely buy non "EPQ" (unless I know for certain that the note is indeed scarce in any grade). But this level of discretion takes some time to acquire, or develop, to assess an Original "Q" note versus a processed specimen. It's a bit like grading in that it is an acquired skill (& eventually a taste) one acquires in order to sort out the "altered" from the "original." I think your "Live & Learn" $100 National is an excellent example 'Steve' and thanks for posting & initiating this difficult topic. Edited by walk2dwater
11/10/2021 7:51 pm
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
150 Posts |
I am old school when it comes to grading, mentored by some of the best fellow collectors and dealers. I have also been lucky in being spoilt early on by having had access to notes taken directly from blocks by collectors who were in a position to bypass the bank tellers.
Having said that, most of my notes are circulated, but my 1972-2001 Irish (B and C series) are all UNC except for one £20 note date which we missed at the time, best I could get was AU (probably grade as a 60-62). I may well have this collection graded someday.
VF or lower grade notes are great, we can handle them and admire them without fear of lowering the grade!!
I second that vote of thanks to Steve for starting this thread on an important topic.
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Replies: 20 / Views: 2,540 |
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First Page
Posted 11/05/2021 10:22 am
