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Locked
822 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2009  05:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add scubu to your friends list

Quote:
Ignorance is no defense" to a violation of law


Well in the case of fraud you are absolutely, positively, wrong. It is pretty much the only defense and it is expected. Fraud by legal definition is intent to deceive. That's the defense the prosecution prepares for in just about every fraud case, and it's the prosecution's burden to prove.

As I said before, it really bothers me that people that are ignorant to it's meaning throw it around so much. It can seriously get you in trouble. There are members here, that likely prefer to remain nameless, that could show you court papers to prove it.
Edited by scubu
01/25/2009 05:13 am
Valued Member
United States
245 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2009  09:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Figman to your friends list
Scubu;It's kind of scarey you are debating the fine lines of the law. Hiding behind a fine line IMO is "subterfuge". If that's a game you like to play, then so be it. It's just not my game!!
Pillar of the Community
Canada
636 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2009  09:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dollar1948 to your friends list
Im really surprised this discussion has now taken a turn backwards to the fine legality of what constitutes fraud. Regardless what it is, my position has not changed that this was an attempted classic case of it.

Im not really a big fan of lawyers, and I got a whole mittfull of jokes to prove it, but please see the link below that defines the Canadian Law of fraud.
Im thinking the key word within the attached is 'reckless'.
http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia....1ARTA0003049
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United Kingdom
1077 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2009  11:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add QuickSilver to your friends list
I think another important word might be "silence". My interpretation is that if the seller knows it's not genuine but says nothing, it would appear under Canadian law that is still fraud. And since we are talking about an item which could have sold in excess of $5000 could have been punishable by a maximum 10 years in the big house. Had they continued with the listing and sold it to someone.

Not surprising it was withdrawn. Once someone pointed out the fraudulent nature of the listing they had no choice. This removal action also makes them appear as if they already knew it was dodgy. Why remove the listing otherwise, they could have added a disclaimer as to the coin's origin instead.

I still do not see how someone who seems to have collected every 50 cent piece out there (Judging by their other listings) could not know that a genuine 1921 is worth a tad more than the 99 cents it was listed at.

The other argument is that they genuinely start all auctions at 99 cents knowing that the market will return an honest price for the piece, but that is risky with such a valuable piece.

Only my opinion but I do feel a collector that owns this many 50 cent pieces would know the 1921 was extremely valuable and therefore also known the one they owned was questionable at best.
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Canada
1082 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2009  3:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add WpgLwr to your friends list
Observations:

1) Let's say the listing wasn't pulled, the transaction went through, the coin was discovered to be a fake, and the police got involved. What jurisdiction would be the one in which the crime occurred?

While it may be true that the ad was composed in Canada, it was meaningless until it was actually online at the ebay site. It would seem to me that the governing jurisdiction would be California, where ebay has its headquarters. It is only there that the ad is put online, because the assumption is that it is the originating place where the offer is made for all to see. Unfortunately, the law is not clear in that regard; see Boschetto v. Hansing, — F.3d —, 2008 WL 3852676 (9th Cir. August 20, 2008), the synopsis of which can be found at http://blog.internetcases.com/2008/...ebay-seller/

2) Let us just say, though, that it would come under Canadian jurisdiction, for sake of arguement. Under which heading of the law would the case come?

Contract Law: To have a contract, there must be three elements present: (1) Offer; (2) Acceptance; (3) Consideration. In this case, the ad is the offer to the public at large. Acceptance comes when someone bids on the item in the ad, but doesn't fully occur until that person's bid is the high one. Consideration occurs when the successful bidder pays for the item in the ad. The Contract is then fully in existence.

Should things not be as they were presented (i.e., the coin turns out to be fake), then the contract becomes null and void, and both parties should rightfully revert to their positions before the offer occurred, although the buyer should be compensated for any normal costs associated with undertaking acceptance of the offer. In this case, the seller would have been smart to refund the money and add a little something "for the buyer's trouble", which would be the fair and logical thing to do, and something that is in his interests as a seller with a reputation to maintain. It would not, however, be seen as any kind of admission to any wrongful goings on on his part, and would end the matter.

Criminal Law:
a) First of all, let's look into this whole situation in regard to Fraud, which is defined by Duhaime's Online Legal Dictionary as "Deceitful conduct designed to manipulate another person to give something of value by (1) lying, (2) by repeating something that is or ought to have been known by the fraudulent party as false or suspect or (3) by concealing a fact from the other party which may have saved that party from being cheated."

Duhaime also states that "the existence of fraud will cause a court to void a contract and can give rise to criminal liability."

As well, Duhaime also furnishes the definition of fraud as found in Canada's Criminal Code (¶380):

"Every one who, by deceit, falsehood or other fraudulent means, whether or not it is a false pretence within the meaning of this Act, defrauds the public or any person, whether ascertained or not, of any property, money or valuable security or any service ... (or) ... with intent to defraud, affects the public market price of stocks, shares, merchandise or anything that is offered for sale to the public."

Clear as mud still?

Okay, let's break down the elements of what Duhaime states:

1) "Deceitful conduct designed to manipulate another person to give something of value..." In this, it appears that there must be a plan to deceive, which would give rise to there being an intent to deceive. Intent must be proven by the prosecution, which is something that is hard to do; however the Court allows intent to be construed by other elements, which when raised, may allow for constructive fraud. In this case, the fact that the seller states that he is a coin dealer and is selling off duplicate stock might well put him into the realm of constructive fraud, the arguement being that "A coin dealer would know full well that this is a very rare item", but this could easily be rebutted if the seller isn't really a dealer at all, merely letting on that he is, but then the burden of proving the defense now shifts to the defendant. Should it be proven by the defendant that he is merely a speculator with a bunch of extra coins and only made it look like he was a dealer, then questions would be raised about fraudulent representation by the seller.

2)"...by lying"... The lie here would be instantly provable by the ad copy.

3)"...by repeating something that is or ought to have been known by the fraudulent party as false or suspect..." Again, the true status of the seller would have to be proven, i.e., dealer or not?

4)"...by concealing a fact from the other party which may have saved that party from being cheated..." To a point, though, because ebay is pretty much a caveat emptor situation. The onus is on the buyer to appraise himself of the item for sale before he makes the decision to buy the item, something that is clearly stated in ebay's policies, as well as being just good common sense.

5) Note, though, that Duhaime also goes on to say that "[t]he existence of fraud will cause a court to void a contract and can give rise to criminal liability." In this situation this would mean that fraud (once proven by the prosecution) would allow for the calling off of the deal made in the auction, and can (not "will") give rise to criminal liability for any losses sustained by the buyer. However, losses in this situation would likely be minimal, at best, when the real nature of the coin was discovered.

6) CCC ¶380 merely states that if you have done any of these things and it has ended in a situation where the buyer has been cheated, the seller is then guilty of fraud. However, Court has to confirm that this is the case.

b) Duhaime has no legal definition for a more specific type of fraud that could conceivably be a much better area for this situation to come under, that of Uttering, which is defined by Barron's Canadian Law Dictionary as, "To put forth; to execute; to offer a forged instrument with representation by words or acts, directly or indirectly, that the instrument is valid; defined in the Criminal Code ¶448 to include "sell, pay, tender and put off." To utter counterfeit money or a coin that is not current are indictable offences relating to currency under ¶452 and 453 of the Criminal Code, id. "The element of deception or dishonesty which, in general, the word 'utter' imports is inherent in the sale of counterfeit money to be circulated as currency since the inevitable consequence is the defrauding of the public..." Regina v. Kelly and Lauzon (1980), 48 C.C.C. (2d) 560 at 566 (Ont.C.A.)." (Emphasis added).

On the face of it, the seller would be guilty not of fraud, but of uttering, because while fraud may exist, it is an inherent component of uttering. The fraud wouldn't have to be proven at all, because if uttering, you have unquestionably committed the fraud.

Okay, that's what the Law states. What would the reality be of this situation? What could likely realistically happen?

1) The buyer would likely complain to the seller about the transaction. The seller would refund the seller's money. The seller would likely receive negative reputation; or

2) The buyer would make a complaint to the RCMP, who would charge the seller with uttering. At Court, it would likely be decided that the matter is a contract, is invalid, and award the buyer with damages which would likely be the value paid for the coin plus any reasonable costs incurred by the buyer; or

3) At Court, the buyer would receive no sympathy because he is supposed to be sophisticated enough as a coin collector to not be deceived, and in any event, caveat emptor comes into play and the matter would be thrown out; or even

4) At Court, the judge would take the view that the buyer deserves no sympathy because if it could be established that the seller was not as sophisticated as he let on, and he listed a rare coin that he was in mistake to the value of and sold it for a very low price that the buyer knew was rediculously low for such a coin, it could be said that the buyer was trying to profit at the expense of the seller, and it would serve him right for being taken.

However, these possibilities aside, the Court would likely throw the matter out of Court regardless of whether the Crown laid any charges against the seller, because ebay does have a dispute mechanism of its own, and all who enter the site are made aware of that fact. The overriding doctrine of all would be caveat emptor, and the Court would likely defer to it.

That'll be $200, please.


Edited by WpgLwr
01/25/2009 3:28 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
636 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2009  5:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dollar1948 to your friends list
LOL....$200.00...by all means invoice me.
I really need to read and re-read the above in order to obsorbe it all.
I get the issue tho, who laws does it fall under.
Maybe canada can export the seller to California, where they have the death penalty..just kidding.
Valued Member
Canada
464 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2009  5:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gawd0wns to your friends list
If there is an extradition request, Canada will not extradite anyone to any nation if there is a risk of torture or the death penalty. The government would have to have big assurances that this will not happen for an extradition to take place

Can I get $20 for that?... I'm willing to accept coins ;)
Edited by gawd0wns
01/25/2009 5:59 pm
Valued Member
United States
245 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2009  6:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Figman to your friends list
My law is a Baseball bat and cost a lot less then $200. I also don't count strikes. lol
Valued Member
Canada
464 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2009  6:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gawd0wns to your friends list
Thanks for the explanation WpgLwr. Very helpful to all Canadian eBayers out there.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1554 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2009  7:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add glenzy1 to your friends list
Here's a prime example of "if it seems too good to be true it always is"! In this day and age with everyone trying to make a fast buck, collectors have to be twice as much vigilante than ever before.
Not only are we getting ripped off from Wall Street brokers, but now we have to BEWARE of the E-bay broker that wants to sell you a coin worth 5 cents for $10K.

Be careful gangsters!


Glenn Pinto
Edited by glenzy1
01/25/2009 7:18 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2009  7:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KurtS to your friends list
Glenn, that obviously fake 1921 reminded me of the coin you sent me...similar surface quality.
Quite a bit of detail to read on a pleasant Sunday, so I'll skip that and just say a lot of good points were made.
Tantamount to this particular issue is how extremely rare this coin is, and obviously people did not fall for it.
Valued Member
Canada
480 Posts
 Posted 03/27/2009  03:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinsnpaper to your friends list
Just looking at it, I notice that the rim denticles are not always there, evenly- reverse at 8 and 10 o'clock. The combination of frosted relief and brilliant surfaces looks too unreal on issues of this period, and the Obverse seems to have unsightly blobs in the hair where it should not have any. The colour combination is also quite unreal- the typical Chinese "silver" alloy is off somewhat from the "real" silver colour, but the colours here are unreal!!
I would like to see a larger picture of the coin, but I would be very surprised if this is not a Chinese counterfeit.
Valued Member
Canada
480 Posts
 Posted 03/27/2009  03:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinsnpaper to your friends list
If you are wanting legalities, look at the Criminal code for counterfeiting. The penalties are there, the coin fits. If it comes into Canada it can be seized, and the person who it is seized from could be prosecuted for possession of counterfeit money. The criminal code also states money or articles of value, which could include stamps, coins of other countries, even ancient coins that are counterfeits could be seized.
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United States
3098 Posts
 Posted 03/27/2009  03:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wd1040 to your friends list
As Ben Franklin said, "To Counterfeit is Death"

I can't believe the number of European banknotes that has some kind of warning of punishment against counterfeiting on them. The French notes have an entire area dedicated to explaining the law, the code #, and the fact that you will be in jail for 30 years or fined ... 3 Million Fr, is it?
Valued Member
United States
259 Posts
 Posted 03/27/2009  07:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chasinva69 to your friends list

Quote:
Well in the case of fraud you are absolutely, positively, wrong. It is pretty much the only defense and it is expected. Fraud by legal definition is intent to deceive. That's the defense the prosecution prepares for in just about every fraud case, and it's the prosecution's burden to prove.

As I said before, it really bothers me that people that are ignorant to it's meaning throw it around so much. It can seriously get you in trouble. There are members here, that likely prefer to remain nameless, that could show you court papers to prove it.


I'm conflicted on this one. I don't buy on E-bay much anymore precisely because it has become a trap for the unwary, and very much "caveat emptor." Still, E-bay has rules against selling fakes and apparently this coin was fake and the seller was trying to pass it off as authentic. What difference does it make to me aas a buyer stuck with a fake that the seller intended to deceive or just acted with complete indifference to the truth?

On the other hand, I would have bid 99 cents. My Krause lists it at $27,000 in VF-20, so the risk/reward ratio was pretty good.

As to Scubu's comments, while this may not be a case of criminal fraud that a prosecutor should pursue, in addition to the criminal courts you have the court of public opinion, and in my opinion, this seller has lost his case in that venue. This seller surely knew how rare this coin is and how unlikely it was to be authentic. From my standpoint as a buyer, if you sell me something you claim to be authentic, and a question over its authenticity arises, you (not me) have the burden to prove it is genuine. I have no doubt this seller was trying to get away with something, and not merely clueless as to what he was selling.
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