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Replies: 29 / Views: 4,208 |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
636 Posts |
If you have ever heard the expression, if its too good to be true it usually is. Well, check out this active ebay listing. Unsure if it is unethical commenting like this on a live auction, but I really think this should be flagged. THIS HAS TO BE A CHINESE FAKE. I mentioned this before that there are chinese sellers selling coins that apparantley have 'replica'stamped on them but when the arrive at the buyer, the replica stamp is not on them. Im sure I don't need to point this out, but this is one expensive coin..a low grade VG goes for $38,000. I sent the seller n email and told them that by rights this piece deserves to be in a bargain bin at Walmart. This only seemed appropriate considering the sellers ebay handle. http://cgi.ebay.com/1921-CANADA-Fif...in_W0QQitemZ250362196129QQihZ015QQcategoryZ3384QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262 Edited by Dollar1948 01/23/2009 4:14 pm
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Moderator
 United States
6563 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
636 Posts |
Charlton catelogue claims only 75 of this same piece remain. The remainder of them got melted down even before they made circulation and were used to make the 1929. I would think this item would have been certified years and years ago, and in private collectors hands. I hate to be skeptical by the signs of fraud are all there.
Edited by Dollar1948 01/23/2009 4:38 pm
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Locked
822 Posts |
Quote: I hate to be skeptical by the signs of fraud are all there. The main ingredient for fraud is intent to deceive. No intent to deceive, no fraud. So no, all the signs of fraud are not there. Could it be fraud? Sure. Do you know it is? Not even close. If the coin is fake and the seller is unaware it's fake, it's not fraud. Sorry, but I hate it when people that don't know the meaning of the word throw it around willy nilly.
Edited by scubu 01/23/2009 4:53 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
The seller has already ended the listing so I think they probably do have good intentions. Looking at the previous items sold by the seller, they seem to be a sell-it-all flea market type so they probably do not have a solid knowledge of coins.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1082 Posts |
I think I'm going to be listening to the news to see if someone discovered a 1921 silver dollar now. His other lots all seem legit, though.
Even if it was fake, there's some nice cheap silver (if it actually was silver, that is).
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
636 Posts |
Scubu,,,I find it tough to swallow that this seller did not have any mallicious intent posting this item. Plain and simple. I can browse every item they have listed, and they have clearly defined the mintage, wether it was scarce, the silver content....etc, so they clearly demonstrated that they do their research and that they have an understanding of what they have. I suggest to you, they were hoping that uneducated buyers would incorrectly fill in the blanks themselves and feel they have found a diamond in the rough, in which it would start a bidding frenzy. Sorry, I'm not a ebay or coin dealer, but I do know alot of the tricks of the ebay listing trade. This one's a text book example of that scenerio. In addition I find it very suspect that hey continiusly use the numismatic grading term VERY FINE in their listing heading, without some intent of attempting to prompt these same uneducated buyers of what type of grade they got. If the seller is an aquaitance of yours, I apologize, but I (along with some other collectors I have just spoken to) weren't born yesterday.
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Valued Member
United States
245 Posts |
"If the coin is fake and the seller is unaware it's fake, it's not fraud."
Ignorance is no defense" to a violation of law
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Moderator
 United States
23531 Posts |
Wow a 1921 and for only 99 cents and no takers
Maybe the buyers are smarter than we thought! Notice the auction is now ended with no bids.
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Valued Member
Canada
351 Posts |
I have taken it upon myself to look into this coin and I am in contact with the seller, getting new pictures and information about the coin. I will keep you guys posted. The seller is an honest person. -Shawn
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
636 Posts |
Shawn, I know for a fact this coin is counterfeit. I am a member of another forum, and the coin is riddled with issues. I knew is was counterfeit just by the date and condition and availability of the coin,,and that was even before knowing about the details indicated below. Quote: This one has all the markers known for fake George V 50 cents from one of the busy Chinese counterfeiters. 1) The lowest point in the "0" in 50 is incomplete... 2) The 2nd Leaf to the Low Right side of the bow, is incomplete, almost missing the top left side of it. 3) The "9" is a full complete loop, it is not supposed to be... It would be interesting to see where they got it..and considering the obvious fact they know a little bit more about coins then some people tend to believe, how it still got listed in the manner it did. Have a look in the Charlton, or trend for a 1921 fifty cent....even the worst grade is worth 5 figures,so the bells should have rang right at that moment. It really concerns me the amount of counterfeit coins that have saturated the market over the past 4 years, most of which are originating from China. Meanwhile ebay continues to turn a blind eye as all they car about is collecting their listing fees. No social responsibility what so ever. I am in the position now that my collection only requires the more expensive key dates, in which I will will normally only purchase them if I personally have them in my hand. I feel sorry for those that do not have that flexibility. I have no intention of slandering this seller what so ever, (In fact without going back to the listing I cant even remember the sellers full ebay handle), however I am going to ascertain that I personally always stay clear of his listings.
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
1077 Posts |
I do not see how the seller could not know it was a fake. Even if like me initially they did not know they had an extremely rare coin, when they came to do their research, reference the mintage and the fact that most were reused in 1929. Would not that same research have shown the true value of a true 1921 50 cent piece?
Assuming it would, they then would not have been selling it for 99 cents unless they assumed it was dodgy.
I am not so sure they are completely innocent in this.
This is a problem I have pointed out before. Now that the chinese fakes are in other hands, how can the non-experts spot the fakes. It's no longer enough to avoid buying from China. This one is in the country of "origin"
Not so much in this case where it is an extremely rare coin, but in the more run of the mill coins the chinese are now copying.
Very worrying for those collectors who do not specialise in one particular type of coin, but prefer to collect coins from all over the globe.
Makes me wonder how many fakes I could have in my own collection.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
4227 Posts |
I would be very interested to hear what the seller has to say about this. It is very questionable to say the least.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts |
I can understand where Dollar1948 is coming from. After all, this is a well-known "holy grail" coin to Canadian collectors. Extremely rare is almost an understatement here. Obviously, it's sort of crazy to copy one because everyone should question its authenticity immediately. Quote: this one has all the markers known for fake George V 50 cents from one of the busy Chinese counterfeiters. 1) The lowest point in the "0" in 50 is incomplete... 2) The 2nd Leaf to the Low Right side of the bow, is incomplete, almost missing the top left side of it. 3) The "9" is a full complete loop, it is not supposed to be...  And the surfaces look all wrong. Not to mention the digits of the date are wrong too...the 1 is far too low, obviously taken from another year/die. I'm guessing there is only one die for the real coin. To the seller's credit they pulled the auction, but just as often somebody puts a coin like this online under the pretense they "don't know" and some buyer thinks they're onto the deal of their lifetime. I guess it all boils down to "buyer beware". 
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
650 Posts |
The story behind the listing would be interesting, like how did he end up with it in the first place. Secondly what was he thinking when he listed it. The pretenion of brushing it off as just a coin they don't need for their collection , must be quite the collection. Interesting expirement, to watch how quick the community was on this.
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Locked
822 Posts |
Quote: Ignorance is no defense" to a violation of law Well in the case of fraud you are absolutely, positively, wrong. It is pretty much the only defense and it is expected. Fraud by legal definition is intent to deceive. That's the defense the prosecution prepares for in just about every fraud case, and it's the prosecution's burden to prove. As I said before, it really bothers me that people that are ignorant to it's meaning throw it around so much. It can seriously get you in trouble. There are members here, that likely prefer to remain nameless, that could show you court papers to prove it.
Edited by scubu 01/25/2009 05:13 am
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Replies: 29 / Views: 4,208 |