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2017-P LSC/ Possible New DDO?

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 Posted 08/31/2022  11:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mb560600 to your friends list
Coop, I previously looked at the PCGS images of the 2017-P and found what appears to me to be obvious differences. I looked again and upon re-examination, IMHO, the Bowtie on this coin differs greatly. There is significant thickening and separation in the knot extending North to South that is quite different.
Also, in ERTY of LIBERTY there is thickening on the left side of each letter, which is different.
Maybe not a DDO but -- do a side by side and you will see differences from a normal 2017-P LSC.
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 Posted 08/31/2022  11:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list
I'll take another look later on. Sometimes it takes different examples, as die states, die polishing and other things can alter the base design. So it will take some more time to tell for sure for me to see what could be going on.
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 Posted 08/31/2022  3:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mb560600 to your friends list
For purposes of comparison, below are images of a "normal" 2017-P LSC with a Bowtie that is not doubled in appearance, nor with any letters in LIBERTY that appear thickened or notched.

The obverse is normal in appearance.
2017-P-LSC/-Possible-New-DDO?

Below, this close-up of the normal coin depicts a Bowtie with a nice rounded knot, as compared with the subject coin which has an enlarged knot separated significantly in the center north/south.
2017-P-LSC/-Possible-New-DDO?

Below is a close-up of the normal coin depicting the letters ERTY, which do not have left-sided thickening and right-sided notching on as we see on the subject coin.
2017-P-LSC/-Possible-New-DDO?

If the subject coin is not a DDO, then what is the cause of the doubling?
Thanks in advance for your comments.
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 Posted 08/31/2022  5:54 pm  Show Profile   Check -makecents-'s eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add -makecents- to your friends list
There are two known doubled working hubs that Wexler lists, yours looks to be the second, 2017-P 1¢ WWHO-002. There were bunches and bunches of the minted, so no worth. Here's the link. https://doubleddie.com/2318537.html
-makecents-
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 Posted 08/31/2022  6:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mb560600 to your friends list
Thanks for your response, makescents.
However, there is nothing on the Wexler site for WWHO-002 indicating a doubled working hub affecting Lincoln's bowtie. Do you know of any such? I would have thought this would be a noteworthy part of such a variety.
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 Posted 08/31/2022  7:15 pm  Show Profile   Check -makecents-'s eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add -makecents- to your friends list
I did a side by side of your pics. The suspected DDO is a closer pic though, so it's not the best comparison. In my opinion, judging from the appearance of the rest of the coin, it's a later die stage and just spread some because of this. This would also explain the lesser detail in the suspected DDO. If you feel that strongly about it, send it in but I think it will come back as 2017-P 1¢ WWHO-002.


2017-P-LSC/-Possible-New-DDO?
-makecents-
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 Posted 08/31/2022  7:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mb560600 to your friends list
Thanks for your side by side visuals, makescents. Really helpful.
From my point of view, the differences in the bowtie are significant enough to seek an opinion about a possible new discovery. But, I'm interested to hear what others in the Community would do if they discovered this coin. Just keep it it as an oddity, or send it in for possible confirmation as a new DDO?
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 Posted 08/31/2022  7:41 pm  Show Profile   Check -makecents-'s eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add -makecents- to your friends list
-makecents-
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 Posted 09/01/2022  6:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list
Depending on the die states you are comparing. To me it looks pretty much normal.
Closer view of EDS example tie area:
2017-P-LSC/-Possible-New-DDO? Note how much die polishing has affected the dies on your coin images?
Edited by coop
09/01/2022 6:42 pm
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 Posted 09/01/2022  10:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mb560600 to your friends list
Coop, I do not understand. What evidence is there of any die polishing on the subject coin? Can you point it out?
Furthermore, how would purported die polishing have anything to do with the doubled appearance of the Bowtie on this coin?

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 Posted 09/02/2022  4:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dowhat to your friends list
Trust your gut. Send it in. Then follow up post.
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 Posted 09/02/2022  7:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list
Note the little Rising areas near the Bow tie? When the dies are polished, the field on that area, polishes off some of the fields and the sub devices on that area. On the image I posted it was a fresher die state than the other images posted. Thus they were affected by the die polishing as the dies aged.
2017-P-LSC/-Possible-New-DDO?
With the removal of the fields, part of those sub devices were removed on that area reducing those devices.
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 Posted 09/02/2022  10:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mb560600 to your friends list
Coop, thanks for following up. Your response raises more questions.
The scenario you pose is based upon the assumption that there was a die polishing event that resulted in the alteration to the image of the Bowtie on this coin. What evidence can you point to on the coin that this is indeed a later stage die that merited a polishing and created an alteration of the device (the bowtie) at the Mint?
Also, you have not addressed the ERTY doubling in LIBERTY. Is this hub doubling, or the result of polishing?
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 Posted 09/03/2022  12:24 am  Show Profile   Check datadragon's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add datadragon to your friends list
The master dies make working hubs. Working hubs then make the working dies that actually strike the coins. This multi-generational process is important to preserve the integrity of the master hubs and dies. As the working dies wear out during coin production, the Mint uses the working hubs to make more working dies. The working dies and hubs get more use and wear out, while the lightly used master hubs and dies stay preserved.

There are two known different doubled working hubs for the 2017-P Lincoln Cent obverse doubled dies as makecents already mentioned. These are responsible for the numerous look alike varieties from the working dies. You are welcome to send in to see if the bowtie is a new variety since they are still sorting these recent coin findings out linking to the known doubled working hubs, but probably will come back as WWHO-002. It may be a later die stage of a working die for example as coop thinks. The Mint uses cent dies to strike an average of one million pennies, but a dime die strikes only about 275,000 dimes so since there will be so many potentially made from the dies, the value should remain under $10 even when in mint state condition.
Edited by datadragon
09/03/2022 12:33 am
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 Posted 09/04/2022  08:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mb560600 to your friends list
Thanks for the response datadragon. Very good information.
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