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 Replies: 29 / Views: 1,954 |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5675 Posts |
The reverse definitely looks more original with some nice toning. Perhaps the reverse was protected in an album, while the obverse was subjected to periodic rubbing that caused some wear and a polished appearance. Still looks like AU sharpness to me, and attractive overall.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
Might very well be an impaired proof strike. Obverse has been worked over. Reverse natural.
AU or Proof details
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
18687 Posts |
I'm still at AU on the coin. the obverse definitely shows signs of dipping/cleaning and the coin would not grade straight. looking at the in-hand photos I'm seeing a flat coin that does not appear polished. watching your vid I'm on the fence and could be polished as well. either way its a details coin.
as for price personally I think $432 is a little high for a details AU coin. if I was only looking for one coin for lets say a type set, I would want a straight graded coin even at a little lower grade.
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
11898 Posts |
Thank you for all your comments and thoughts. Sharing my observations, imho I don't see any wear on this coin. The reverse is better in detail and sharpness than the MS66 coins that I see pictured at the top of the business strike census. Both sides exhibit exquisite fields and devices. The fields in particular are mirror-like. I agree that the reverse is better than the obverse, but I see no evidence of polishing, cleaning. On the obverse, there are hairlines in the upper half of the coin. there are also a few small hits, particularly in the right knee of liberty, to the right of star4 and in the right obverse field. Because of the surfaces and the details in the devices, I believe that this coin is likely a proof strike, not a business strike. I would grade it PR62. I was able to capture the toning on the obverse when I stopped flooding the dark coin with so much light. It is difficult to photograph this coin but I think I was able to capture it fairly well below. At least better than in prior attempts.   IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
Figured as much. It's way too sharp and too squared off to be a business strike IMO. From what I know, there are a number of impaired Proofs which were wiped or polished by collectors when displayed in their cabinets or even (allegedly) by Treasury or Mint employees.
You almost never see business strike double dimes with a fully struck shield or breast feathers. It's not unheard of, by any means, but it's far more the exception than the rule.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5675 Posts |
The weakness on the eagle's talons seems inconsistent with a proof strike.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
9792 Posts |
IMO it is a BF-1 variety the more common of the 3 for 1875-P double dimes, I think it's been messed with over dipped, possibly in a coin cabinet to cause the polished look, the color doesn't sit right with me either, but I could be wrong on that. at $432 it's not a bad price though. Closer to an EF45 than AU in my eyes. Here is what the experts Lane Brunner and John Frost have to say on the 1875:     (You can freely download all the 1875-P addendum pages, from their excellent book here: http://www.doubledimes.com/)"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440 |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
@NS I hope you send this off for certification. I'll be dying to know if it's a Proof or Business Strike!
Westcoin is more knowledgeable than I am when it comes to these.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
@paralyse - as always thanks for your thoughts and if there is a submission I will drop this one in, but I see no compelling reason to holder most coins. After grading, it's still the same coin.  @westcoin - as always thank you for posting the plethora of information.  I have been fascinated with and have studied that reference for years. Quote:
Closer to an EF45 than AU I made a side by side comparison of this coin with a pcgs XF45 1875-CC coin that I own to the right. Not really convinced that the subject of this coin falls into XF45.   IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
I'm just thinking along the lines of getting it certified as a Proof or Business Strike, not for the actual grade. You're welcome, it's always a pleasure to read your posts. I've had to replace a few keyboards due to excessive drooling, but that's life.  Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
9792 Posts |
Quote:
NS: I made a side by side comparison of this coin with a pcgs XF45 1875-CC coin that I own to the right. Not really convinced that the subject of this coin falls into XF45. Yep I can see that now, maybe closer to AU53 then. THere is nowhere near enough wear on the reverse to go EF range, I dropped the ball on this one as to grade, I still am not convinced it's not a detail coin though. Cleaned/overdipped, and possible AT at some point in it's life. "Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5675 Posts |
I still think this can't be a proof strike. The eagle's talons on a proof should be fully struck with detailed ribbing down to the claw tips. There's not enough wear on the rest of the reverse to account for the weakness in the talons, so it must be from strike weakness or grease, neither likely in an impaired proof.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
@Zurie - that is an astute observation and IMHO the best argument for this being a business strike, but looking at it in hand, it looks proof to me based on the surfaces, especially in the fields, which look like a freshly zambonied ice rink after one or two skaters have just placed a few skate tracks on the ice. I think k the video captures that a little.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1021 Posts |
I have a Flying Eagle cent that is graded as MS by NGC, though it is obvious to be a proof. In fact, there are no known MS examples struck from the die pair associated with it! There are no guarantees that even if sent off to a TPG, that they will attribute it properly. |
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Valued Member
United States
485 Posts |
Gorgeous coin! I'll say AU-55. I wouldn't be shocked at AU-details (cleaned) either.
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Replies: 29 / Views: 1,954 |
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Posted 10/17/2023 02:59 am
