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 Replies: 22 / Views: 1,910 |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4038 Posts |
Quote:
Ray, if there were anyone who had had a high end example of each mm style, it would be you. Maybe post a picture of each (002,005) that will show better what they look like. Does not need to be from a quarter. Actually, there is a better pic of the MM already on VV, but on the general "San Francisco Mintmark Styles" page, see here: http://varietyvista.com/25%20What%2...20Styles.htmI usually go by this page for the SF MM reference. The MM designations are a bit inconsistent on VV unfortunately. I guess the same MM punch has a different designation depending on the series, yet the main SF MM page has all the punches listed and all the denominations. |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
6562 Posts |
The first mint mark is a Trumpet Tail S. Compare to a mint state coin: https://www.pcgs.com/cert/25383732There is tremendous variation in the TT-S, to the point where I kind of assume that multiple punches were in use. Some are thin, and others seem like the punch was crushed with use, with tiny holes instead of full loops. I don't think that die polishing can fully explain it. The second S looks like a tall S. It doesn't have that hard angle in the lower loop, so I'm not sure. The tail protrudes pretty far past the body for a TT-S, but I guess it could have been crushed or smeared. It feels like it has way too much metal in the bottom curve to be a TT-S. Also worth noting, there are instances where the years on Variety Vista S mint marks have incorrect gaps. You can find many examples on PCGS of clear overlap of certain types that are missing on VV. When I first started learning S mint marks, I gave myself a headache with a 1952-S nickel until I realized that it was a TT-S. Later, that appeared to get corrected on Variety Vista. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8800 Posts |
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It feels like it has way too much metal in the bottom curve to be a TT-S. You also need to remember that there is more metal in the later punches as they got more worn. Here is a pic of the Trumpet Tail on a 1950 quarter that is already showing the extra thickness.  Quote:
Later, that appeared to get corrected on Variety Vista. Yes, I have posted the link to that correction multiple times on this forum over the last few years. Ray (rmpsrpms), is the one who did the pictures for Will Brooks for this correction. -makecents-
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Valued Member
 United States
292 Posts |
Okay so these are both 1951 quarters. so it should only be MM-002 the trumpet tail unless some got punched early with MMS-005?
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Valued Member
United States
292 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4038 Posts |
Interesting! I did an overlay by scaling the images to the same magnification, aligning the MMs, and then animating them, see the result below. I don't think these used the same punch, as the one I think is -05 is taller than the other. The "fatness" of the punching is a variable due to punch depth, hits, etc but the overall height is mostly due to the punch. Plus, the MM can't get smaller with hits and punching, only bigger.  Contact me for photographic equipment or visit my home page at: http://macrocoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8800 Posts |
Ray, I did the same thing as far as the correct magnification, because the first mm pic of the OP's was larger. When I made them the same magnification and did a side by side comparison, they look to be the same height. The fact that these coins are well circulated, I feel there could be many factors that we cannot know. I feel that the first mm posted was abraded/polished which changed the look of it and the second one posted looks to have been damaged in circulation, at least this is the way I see them. I also see this as a good situation to use Occam's razor.  -makecents-
Edited by -makecents-
04/02/2025 11:07 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6562 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6562 Posts |
Quote:
You also need to remember that there is more metal in the later punches as they got more worn. Wear is definitely a factor. However, you can pick any year—including 1951-and find thin, well formed Trumpet Tail S marks alongside the broad, flattened Trumpet Tail S that looks quite different. I don't think that's the punch wearing out over the course of a year, I think that's multiple punches in use. Particularly because you can see the same punch in use in many consecutive years. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8800 Posts |
Quote:
I don't think that's the punch wearing out over the course of a year, I was referring to the coin you had in the link, which was from 1942, early in the punches life. Quote:
I think that's multiple punches in use I cannot argue with this.  -makecents-
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4038 Posts |
Hmm, my equalization of magnification shows that one is taller than the other. Not much but a bit. I guess I would need to check some actual coins as you suggested earlier to be sure, but ultimately if both are from 1951, I'd be arguing that the -005 was used in 1951, which would be quite a revelation but probably not my windmill.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6562 Posts |
I have sometimes wondered if the difference between the thin, aesthetically pleasing trumpet tail S and the stubby, broad trumpet tail S is merely the depth of punch. But if that were the case, the broad mint mark would taper upwards to the thin outline, correct?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4038 Posts |
That is correct.
It's often most instructive to "paint" a line at the highest ridge point of the MM. This won't change with depth of punching so is a good reference. I often do this when seeing if a secondary MM or portion of one could be a MM or a gouge, etc.
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Valued Member
United States
292 Posts |
can the MM get wider as it ages?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4038 Posts |
Probably it can distort as it is used, but we'd see that over time during the years it was used.
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Replies: 22 / Views: 1,910 |
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Posted 04/02/2025 12:45 am
