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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7936 Posts |
I forgot to mention ... the use of the "Volto Santo" on one side of the Lucca grosso would persist for 500 years! (though the monogram design on the other side would be gone by 1400). No ... we're still not done with all the individualistic expressions of the medieval grosso (no wonder newtraffic2 and I enjoy it so much!)... Pisa was a nearby medieval rival of Lucca, and moved in lockstep with other Tuscan mints in the introduction of larger silver coins in the 13th century. Around 1220 they introduced a grosso of 12 denari (like Florence and Lucca), then in 1269 a large grosso of 2 soldi with a new design featuring an imperial eagle on one side and a madonna on the other:  Copyright Numismatica Varesi The eagle with FR IMPTOR honored Frederick I who had granted Pisa broad mercantile freedoms in the 1160s (just as Genoa's and Lucca's coins paid homage to Conrad III, and Otto IV respectively for centuries after their deaths). A version of that eagle had appeared on the famous Sicilian Augustalis Frederick II struck from 1231 https://en.numista.com/141302 ... and on the Tyrol adlergroschen (struck from 1259) posted upthread. Not clear which one (if either) was the inspiration, but either way it was a symbol of Pisa's enduring allegiance to the HRE in the guelph-ghibbeline squabbles that pitted the Italian city-states against each other in late medieval times. The madonna (and especially the Greek legend at the top) is inspired by Byzantine coins. Edited by tdziemia
12/21/2025 1:14 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7936 Posts |
Meanwhile, far to the south ... The ambitious and ruthless Charles I of Anjou (youngest son of Louis VIII of France), already also Count of Provence, secured a seat on the Roman Senate (1263), and the title King of Sicily (1266) following a power struggle on the death of Frederick II Hohenstaufen. It was the beginning of nearly 2 centuries of French rule in the south of Italy. In a 1278 monetary reform, Charles closed the established mints at Brindisi and Messina, and consolidated their activities in Naples. At the same time he launched a series of new coins, incuding the silver carlino of 3.34 grams and 0.929 fine valued at a half gold tari (this was one of the few parts of western Europe that never embraced the penny-shilling-pound system as best I can tell). Yet another innovative design, it featured Charles' coat of arms and titles obverse, and a scene of the Annunciation reverse (kinda timely for Christmas  ). Today the coin is more commonly called a saluto d'argento. For me, the most remarkable 13th century silver coin of Italy for its reverse imagery. Here is a saluto d'argento struck by his successor, Charles II 1285-1302   Edited by tdziemia
12/23/2025 08:03 am
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Moderator
 United States
187950 Posts |
Very nice!  |
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Valued Member
United States
218 Posts |
If I had more time, I'd get into medieval Italian coins.
Fantastic thread, everyone :)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7936 Posts |
In addition to the coins and their designs, there are some interesting patterns I'm not sure I can explain (more reading would help).
The most enduring designs are those of Venice (always St. Mark and the doge on one side, Christ on the other) and Genoa (always the gateway and a cross). Florence is next closest with the lily and St. John, though the representation of John changes several times on the grosso (standing > seated > standing) unlike on the florin.
Some of the things those places had in commmon:
- they were long-lived Republics (rather than autocracies)
- their economies were dependent on international trade (I think especially for Venice and Genoa, maybe a bit less for Florence?)
The most obvious connection would be something like trustworthiness of the currency = consistency of design. But maybe that's too simple.
Edited by tdziemia
12/25/2025 07:52 am
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Pillar of the Community
Portugal
655 Posts |
Italian cities pioneered the good silver coins, the grosso was their influential innovation in the catholic west. But not the gold issues.
The return to gold of western catholic kingdoms started in the frontier where gold from muslim controlled Africa was available in quantity. The king of Leon, Ferdinand II, was the first monarch to issue a gold coin that was not just an imitation of those of the islamic states. It was based on the weight standard of the debased dinar of the late Almoravids and first taifa kingdoms but it depicted the king and had no arabic legends.
The counts of Barcelona, who were not kings, had preceded him in coining gold coins for the Mediterranean trade. Barcelona was for a short time relevant in Mediterranean trade and banking. Before Genoa took over the position. Ramon Berenguer gained large parias in gold from the almoravid taifas and struck large numbers of coins under his own name. But those looked similar to the almoravid coinage. Like later the Almohad dirhams were copied in Barcelona and other cities. I call those imitation coinage.
In Italy Frederick II also beat Genoa to gold coinage with his augustale in 1229.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7936 Posts |
Quote:
In Italy Frederick II also beat Genoa to gold coinage with his augustale in 1229. Yes, also in Sicily there was a large (c. 2.5 gr.) silver coin earlier than the Venetian grosso: the ducalis of Roger II struck from 1140 which is remarkably similar to the Venetian grosso (both having taken their inspiration from Byzantine types):  Copyright Leu Numismatik Both the ducalis and augustale tend to be ignored a bit in the history of European numismatics, I think because they did not exist within the "penny- shilling-pound" system of Western Europe but were tied to the units of account in the Islamic currency system ( the ducalis was estimated to have been pegged at 1/3 of a Sicilian tari; the augustale at 7.5 taris, or close to the gold Byzantine solidus ). Maybe more importantly, neither of them endured after their initial issue. And thanks for the comments on gold in Spain. I need to learn more! Edited by tdziemia
12/25/2025 2:47 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Portugal
655 Posts |
Nice. That is a bowl shaped coin inspired on the byzantine ones?
It would be natural for Sicily to be influenced by the Fatimid coinage because it was held by them for a century and was in the middle of the north-south and east-west Mediterranean trade routes. I am not much into medieval numismatics because there are so many coins. Learning is intimidating. And Italy with all ins statelets has endless varieties. Makes it very interesting but it also scares beginners
But it is historically rewarding to learn the details. If it takes a lifetime. The the southern shore of the Mediterranean has another series of kingdoms and empires that soon broke with the middle east caliphate and its coinage standards. For the Almohads we know their reasoning for changing the weights. For others not so much. They may be very old echoes. Some weight systems used in the Iberian Peninsula until the nineteenth century matched the old Assyrian system exactly. Other regions used multiples of the Babylonian system. Coincidence or influence? It was not just the phoenicians who traveled and influenced standards across the Mediterranean in antiquity. Numismatics, the weight standards of coinage, could give some clues about those ancient influences.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5029 Posts |
great information and some beautiful examples.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7936 Posts |
On page 3, in a series of posts between 12/6 and 12/10/2025, I posted several types of Florentine "fiorini" (grossos): one from the late 13th century, and two from the 15th, each differing in how Saint John is portrayed. I just added this early 14th century type, MIR 44 (1306-1313) where he stands between two plants. It can be dated to 1312 by the crescent moon mintmaster's mark around 1:00 on the reverse.   There is an earlier type dateable to 1296 which is similar, but John holds a scroll with the word ECCE (Behold!). On my radar screen, but tough to find. Edited by tdziemia
03/07/2026 08:07 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4964 Posts |
I dig the "Between Two Ferns" John! There are some really great coin in this thread. Here's a grosso that is a favorite of mine.  ITALY, Milan. Giovanni Maria Visconti, 1402-1412 AD. AR Grosso O:+ S AMBROSIVS MEDIOLAN St. Ambrose mitred, nimbate, seated facing, holding scourge and crozier. R: + • IOHANES• MARIA• DVX• MEDIOLANI 3C'• Visonti coat of arms flanked by I-M. 22 mm, 2.4 g. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7936 Posts |
Quote:
There are some really great coins in this thread. Thanks for adding yours! Yeah, Newtraffic got us stared with his nice Venetian grossi, but as I took the thread in the "educational" direction, I've used a lot of images that are not of my own coins, but help illustrate some of the local styles. |
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Moderator
United States
187950 Posts |
Nice examples! |
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Valued Member
 United States
96 Posts |
I have a few coming. By the way, tdziemia, the Grosso of Enrico Dandolo was not of him (from the thread soley mentioning Enrico) I bought it mislabeled and the seller is making extremely good on his mistake. He is sending me another Grosso which I'll post soon enough
Edited by newtraffic2
03/09/2026 10:24 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7936 Posts |
I hope it works out OK and glad we were able to help out. |
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Posted 12/23/2025 07:51 am
