Cuirassed - How To Tell

In this case I'd say that was just part of the drapery, my opinion only.

I get bored quick looking for these items when they are not clear I usually describe my coins putting anything I'm unsure of in orange, periodically I go back re-investigating the orange items and can sometimes remove some.

'Right radiate, draped, cuirassed from rear'

Thanks Ed. I see the difference between the two coins, but other than the vertical lines at 6 o'clock, both look like drapery to me. I know I'm being obstinate about this, but I really want to be able to glance at a coin and be able to describe it correctly if possible.

One additional question. The clasp that we have all referred to, is that what is called a fibula? I see fibula for sale on line quite often and I have always assumed they were the "clasp" used to hold the drapery.

I think you may have over-looked the fact that (certainly on radiates) the drapery is almost always worn over the cuirass (like a sleeveless sports bib) so the vast majority of it is covered, we just have to look for little bits that are poking out. Usually the areas this happens in is the top of the shoulder, around the neck and the top of the back.

I get the feeling you have mis-understood something at some point and have the wrong idea about how this works. I'm sure when the penny drops it'll all become clear (well, clearish!).

Thanks for the link Gil-galad, always good to add detail for those who may have become lost during the thread.

I think it may take more than a penny. Perhaps a boulder. Just give me the dunce cap and sit me in the corner!

Looking at the images posted by Ed, I see the differences in the folds of the drapery on the shoulder, but, again, that all looks like drapery to me. The vertical lines I mentioned earlier at 6 o'clock are the only thing I see to make me want to say the second image is cuirassed.

I guess I will have to let this rest for the time being. Maybe in my sleep it'll all hit me, not like a penny, but like a ton of bricks.

Both coins that Ed illustrate are draped busts seen from the rear, one with evidence of cuirass and one without. The vertical lines you see on the shoulder at 6 o'clock are the Pteruges (also spelled pteryges), which are taken as being evidence of the remainder of a cuirass beneath the cloak. Without these Pteruges the bust is deemed draped only. The issue arises that these Pteruges are worn on many examples and their evidence is not always consistent. It requires examples with good enough strike without significant wear to the area to be able to be certain. It becomes even more difficult on some denarii (particularly on eastern denarii of Geta and Caracalla) when there are some but not many lines shown on the shoulder making the reading even more uncertain.
I hope this helps.
Regards,
Martin

Here is an example of the pteruges on a bust of Augustus wearing a cuirass.



Regards,
Martin

I must agree Martin, draped and cuirassed.

Ed

Augustus of Prima Porta--that's really helps see the pteruges on the coin.
Subtle to my eyes, but probably not to Romans...they would pick up immediately.