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Theodora

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 Posted 05/21/2012  4:48 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add dougsmit to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
My coin show last Friday produced a coin I usually would not have considered but I broke a rule and bought a coin missing the mintmark. I usually hate to do this. In this case, I believe that the mint city can be identified by style when you check which mints used the legends and spacings seen here. I would appreciate you opinions on what mint produced this coin just to see if we agree.
Theodora
Since I'm not telling which mint I think made the coin, I'm also going to omit mention of which RIC volume you need to search for Theodora and might even go so far as to ask someone to explain not ony why she appears there but why anyone issued coins for Theodora at all. Several of her children were players in the drama that was the 4th century but which one got her honored by coins?

I only had one previous Theodora. The new one is an upgrade in some ways but not in others and the old one is the one with the mintmark.


Theodora
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Bing's Avatar
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 Posted 05/21/2012  5:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Rome mint?
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ancientcoinguy's Avatar
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 Posted 05/21/2012  5:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ancientcoinguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hmmm. Theodora only had coins made in her name in three cities: Rome, Constantinople, and Trier. I think it could be Constantinople. The coins minted in Trier often appeared to be almost barbaric in the bust execution, but your coin does not look this way. If you check out the first coin entry on Theodora's Wild Winds page under Constantinople it seems to match (IMO).
Edited by ancientcoinguy
05/21/2012 5:58 pm
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echizento's Avatar
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 Posted 05/21/2012  7:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The larger amount of mint marks for this type appear to be from Trier. This is a guess on my part, but I think you were able to tell this coin is from one of the two other mints. I'm going to agree with ancientcoinguy and say Constantinople.
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giano's Avatar
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 Posted 05/22/2012  03:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add giano to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mine is not a scientific method, but I found more often on an ancient coin that when the portrait of the ruler is as similar as possible, and the most accurate of all, the mint is always Rome ... especially on the coins of Constantine or similar period....
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bobbyhelmet's Avatar
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 Posted 05/22/2012  07:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobbyhelmet to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting question, dont give us the answer just yet as I'm not quite finished trying to work it out, I know little about her or her coins

My perhaps incorrect ramblings so far.

I think it could only have been minted in the following places, Trier (under Constantine II), Rome (under Constans) or Constantinopolis (under Constantius II).

I have a nagging doubt I may be missing something with Dalmatius but pretty sure he was 'out of the picture' before this was struck.

Style wise I would discount Trier and Constantine II but I cant seem to decide between the other two mints. If pushed I would probably say Constantinopolis.

The most interesting thing is why any of them would mint a coin to their non-paternal grandmother .

The three brothers were in a power struggle themselves at around this time and Theodora was either Maximiam's daughter or step-daughter, not sure how this impacts on the answer but suspect it does.
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 Posted 05/22/2012  07:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dougsmit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We always hear of Theodora as the second wife of Constantius I but she had six children and more significant grandchildren. The coin was issued after Constantine and Helena had died so offence at honoring her would be gone. Was the reason Delmatius, Neopotian, Julian or who? We can rule out Licinius II since he was long gone.

I've always wondered how different things might have turned out if Constantine had shelved Fausta because she was related to Licinius and disinherited her sons. He might not have killed Crispus and spared us the civil wars between the brothers. Julian II might still be available as a Caesar for Crispus but lacking all the actions of his Christian family, he might not have left the religion. Decisions on the level of Constantine really can change history but it does no good to play 'what if' unless you are writing fiction.
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bobbyhelmet's Avatar
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 Posted 05/22/2012  09:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobbyhelmet to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, Hannibalianus, like Licinius II (Constantia) was dead before the purges after Constantines death and had no heirs.

Anastasia was promised to Bassianus but it didn't happen so I cant see her being involved.

Eutropia is the link to Virius Nepotianus and Nepotianus whom I suppose could have produced this coin when he usurped against Magnentius but unlikely.

Leaving us, I think, with only Julius Constantius or his son Constantius Gallus or Flavius Dalmatius or his son Dalmatius. All other descendants seem to inconsequential unless I'm missing something like a marriage. Both of these fathers were killed shortly after Constantines death in 337.

Constantius Gallus is certainly a possibility but I cant find any references to any of these offspring issuing coins in her name, unfortunately I have neither the time or the desire right now to fight RICs index systems but would suggest 8 as a good starting point.

I had stayed away from these issuers and stuck to Constantines sons as I was far from sure any of them actually issued coins in here name, but, being the reason for an issue and issuing it yourself are two different things with the same outcome. I thought I had missed something with Dalmatius / Delmatius and getting no further forward after the above will stick with him. Its possible he championed the coin or had this one produced shortly before he was murdered and his part of the Empire absorbed by Constans and Constantius II.
Edited by bobbyhelmet
05/22/2012 09:20 am
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echizento's Avatar
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 Posted 05/22/2012  11:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
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echizento's Avatar
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 Posted 05/23/2012  11:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Waiting for the answer. Are you ready to reveal it yet?
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 Posted 05/23/2012  11:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobbyhelmet to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Me too
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 Posted 05/23/2012  3:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dougsmit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I see it as Trier style. Rome is impossible due to the obverse legend breaking in a different place than they used. Constantinople is eliminated to me just as a question of style but I could be wrong.
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 Posted 05/23/2012  4:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobbyhelmet to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So what / who was the driver behind its issuing?

If the widely stated mint date of 337-340AD is correct I'm having trouble identifying a direct Theodora descendant as many of them were killed in 337 after Constantines death, the remaining ones seem too young or inconsequential to have the power to make a difference.

All of the remaining protagonists (Constantines sons) produced this coin in their mints so I cant see any benefit to them as individuals but only as a whole to appease the 'in-laws', many of whom they had just murdered
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 Posted 05/23/2012  8:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dougsmit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


Consider that the RIC listings also include coins for Helena as part of this series. Both women were dead but neither has Diva legend to match Constantine's posthumous coins also part of the same series. Perhaps they were honored people by many factions and safe to honor without being controversial?
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