Toning Alters Coins Surface

Hi JDW,
Welcome, and thanks for the informative and thoughtful post!

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But, I think he also makes the same leap of faith that many collectors of perfect white coins do, that Intercept Shield products are the answer to the very real possibility that the environment will change the surface of their coins after they leave the Mint.

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I have read White's book, Coin Chemistry (ISBN: 0-9713924-7-1), and found it to be very informative. In it he details experiments in which he exposed silver coins in various holders to artificially elevated levels of atmospheric H2S. Coins in Kointain holders and slabs (from the top TPGs) toned surprisingly readily, whereas those in Intercept Shield holders did not appear to tone at all. Based on what I've read, it sounds as though the best way to protect your coins, at least for many years, is by use of these products. Alternatively, one could keep plenty of fresh copper around the collection (either in sheet form, or new pennies, or whatever), as the atmospheric H2S reacts with Cu more readily. In fact, as I understand it, the main "secret ingredient" of the Intercept Shield material is Cu.

I think the mention of the amount of converted micrograms is used as an indication of toning color. The lower amounts are indicative of less toning, such as golden, whereas the higher amounts are indicative of more toning, such as blue or black.

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He doen't say what happens if you just let the coin be. I'd like to know if the toning itself does not become a sheild against the stuff that caused it to tone in the first place.

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Nope, it will keep on toning as long as unreacted Ag is about. It will eventually become black, and will continue to tone as long as there is unreacted Ag on the surface. As far as I know, the gas will not infiltrate the coin, at least to any great extent, so the toning is always on the surface. My advice is that if you have a toned coin that you like, and want it to stay as it is, buy an Intercept Shield for it and store it like that. Otherwise, it will continue to darken, and the beautiful coin you paid premium $$ for today will appear ugly and lose much value in the future.

No, I do not have any stock in Intercept Shield, but I do have some background in chemistry and experimental methods, and White has tested and explained the concepts well. Again, I'd recommend his book for those of you who would like to educate yourselves further on the matter.

Regards,
~neuron

If a coin has lost metal from wear or dark toning I say...GOOD! It's a sign that the coin had some adventure in it's life. To fret over what was lost would be, IMO, akin to someone from the old dueling societies fretting over a dueling scar. As I understand it they not only didn't fret about them but were proud they were there.

"...I got scars, I got lines,
I'm not hard to define..."
Coastal Confessions
Jimmy Buffett

It's easy. All toned coins are damaged and shouldn't be graded MS. They should be given their own designation of NT.



Jerry

Hi Folks! A lot of posts are pointing out that even sealed mint set and proof coins tone in unopened packages. Some do, and some do not. The reason could be the chemical composition of the air that was sealed into the set at the time of packaging or some permeable source of contamination after the fact, such as drastic temperature change or heat or contamination from the packaging material itself. At any rate, I don't think that’s the point. I believe that coins can and do degrade from a perfect mint state, sometimes even in the best of storage conditions. I don't think toned coins do not deserve a mint state status, just a reduction based on the severity of the damage caused by the toning. No different than the reduction caused by bag marks, fingerprints, nicks, and the myriad of other factors that reduce a coins grade coin as it moves away perfect mint state. Any way you look at it the coin is damaged! I don't know if this is plot to diminish the value of toned coins. I doubt many coins exist that are not toned, even if it is nearly invisable. Maybe I'm missing the point, by why does oxidation of the metal on coins cause such a controversy? Many have pointed out it is natural, it does damage the surface and eventually if left unchecked can really ruin the appearance of the coin. This debate is very interesting because science is crossing paths with asthetics and after all beauty truly is in the "eye of the beholder"! Peace, Mike

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Originally posted by Mike

after all beauty truly is in the "eye of the beholder"! Peace, Mike

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And yet the Great Holy Fathers can reduce the ever changing and diverse desires/perceptions of 1000's of beholders into a single grade. Aren't they amazing?

This is especially true when it comes to what is or isn't damage to a collector. You mentioned your Union Cavarly sword in another thread. What if instead that sword belonged to Nathan Bedford Forrest and he had his initials carved into it. Would that be "damage" or would it be a really loud YIPPPEEEEEE!!!!

The logic that applys to a few missing atoms of metal on a toned coin can also be extended to brillant coins. Maybe they aren't mint state as soon as they fall out of the die and get the first nick.

Mike

Im glad that you at least considered the cents, but your point is off the mark, the last few posts were targeted at labeling ALL toned coins with an NT rather than an MS ,, I'm looking for the line between acceptable toning and unacceptable, if no toning is acceptable then cents are out from the start, they are not protected directly from the mint.

even the red cents are not the same color as Mint fresh,, this is very noticable from mint-bank rolls of new cents, there are many shades of red within one roll!!

Now how about that line on toning , where do you think it can be drawn ?

I personally do not believe there is a suitable place,especially if it depends on a color change on the surface of any given coin!!

I happen to agree with longnine, the collectors are at the mercy of the whims and views of the selected few when it comes to things like this,, and it can cost the collector many dollars based on their whims .

it can also make many thousands of dollars for the right people of influence !!

you know some of those toned coins occupy places on the pop reports? given the right circumstances and the right science they maybe removed!! it doent take a rocket scientist to figure the outcome of that !!!

Rick

Hi Toast

The abbreviation NT (natural toning or Naturally toned) is being used here for the sake of aurguement, since at this time no such designation exists !!

But with science beginning to call toned coins damaged and conversation calling for toned coins to not be graded as mint state based on the toning ,, it may not be long before that designation becomes an actual grade .

This thread is a disscussion of possibilities should that come to pass, nothing more nothing less, it is a good conversation since there are people from both views and people who fall somewhere in the middle, education at its best in my opinion!!!

Rick

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Originally posted by Mike

Have some fun with the hobby! Buy from your friends and from those you know and trust who don't fall over and chase every fad that comes down the road. Be patient and even this fad will pass, in fact, based on the concerns expressed in this thread it may be happening now! Mike

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I do all those things Mike but it's still fun to pick on them.
If you really want to get a migraine with this stuff consider that all the complaining that I and others (1,000's of others)do about TPG's and market grading may be exactly what they want. Is it hard to picture the day when the top TPG's get together and declare that they will conform to a new and improved universally accepted standard. What happens then? Remember now, it's not the fault of any one TPG. Their grading is perfect. Each can claim they are just doing this because collectors want reform. And after all TPG's live to serve. Doesn't a new grading standard accepted by all the top TPG's require a new slab with some kind of Universal Grading logo and smiley face on it. Wouldn't those new slabs make the existing slabs obsolete and worth less? And most important of all from a TPG standpoint, wouldn't that be the same as starting all over again in the grading business? It would be 1986 all over again.