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Paying Taxes On Precious Metals

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Valued Member

United States
245 Posts
 Posted 08/19/2015  9:37 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add TMCD75 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
If I pay cash for my gold and silver, and then three years later sell it for cash, there's not much of a trail. I just don't see how the government could keep up with and track these types of transactions.

I absolutely do not agree with the ridiculous tax rate that pm are taxed at anyway. From my limited buying experience, bullion/coin sales are cash sales anyway. Thoughts?
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pepactonius's Avatar
United States
9395 Posts
 Posted 08/19/2015  11:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pepactonius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I guess this would be tax evasion? If IRS did manage to catch you, I wonder if there'd be possible prison time?
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BStrauss3's Avatar
United States
4592 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2015  12:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Of course it's taxable...

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p544.pdf
Sales and Other Dispositions of Assets

Coins, Gold, Silver etc. are explicitly called out as capital assets on page 22 and 27.


(added) And even if you don't report it, a business seller (pawn broker, coin shop) is required to file IRS paperwork above a certain amount (it used to be 10K, I think it's now 3K)
-----Burton
50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club
Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983)

Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
Edited by BStrauss3
08/20/2015 12:35 am
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Pacificoin's Avatar
Canada
5394 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2015  12:39 am  Show Profile   Check Pacificoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pacificoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Tax evasion is not pretty.
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BuckeyeCoinGuy's Avatar
United States
711 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2015  12:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BuckeyeCoinGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What would you do for cost basis on a sale?

Obviously cost basis should be the price paid (plus freight in and taxes if any on purchase).

Not sure that that is how it is, but it is how it should be.

Now would they take your word in a cash transaction, that is the 18 months prison time type of question.
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mrpapageorgio's Avatar
United States
669 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2015  02:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mrpapageorgio to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
IMHO, if you were selling $500 in bullion, I doubt the IRS will notice; selling $50,000 in bullion is a different story. But on the other hand, all it takes is one slip up and before you know it, they're auditing every tax return you filed to see if you shorted them in other areas.

I would put what I paid the seller in order to get the coins (i.e. If I paid $1500 w/free shipping, I would put down $1500. If I paid $1500 + $50 shipping, I would put $1550). The IRS considers transaction fees in stock as part of the cost of a stock (http://www.schwab.com/public/schwab...Deductible), so I would think shipping costs would be the same.
Edited by mrpapageorgio
08/20/2015 02:25 am
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CelticKnot's Avatar
United States
12837 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2015  03:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CelticKnot to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Tax evasion is, of course, illegal. Don't do it.

That said, do your research. Texas (where I live) recently repealed sales tax on PMs, which is great for me. So check out your local laws.

If you do not live in a state/locality that doesn't charge sales tax on PM, you may personally be able to side step taxes but a reputable dealer will not be able to nor will they have any good reason to. Think about the potential repercussions.
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Elimist's Avatar
United States
632 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2015  10:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Elimist to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am not familiar with precious metals taxes, I honestly didn't know such a thing existed, but It would seem strange to me if you sell your assets with no capital gains then how would the government be able to tax it? How would they be able to prove it with cash transactions? If you buy $1000 worth of gold in May and sell it for $1000 in August then you have no profit or income to tax. Does this mean when I sell my old car for $1000 or my stereo system for $600 that I should pay taxes on that money? To me it doesn't make sense because it's not profiting me, I'm not a private business with retail values and overhead, I just exchanged some personal assets for their cash value.

Again I could have that all wrong but just doesn't make sense to me.
Edited by Elimist
08/20/2015 10:18 am
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2015  10:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The sale of gold bullion is not taxable in Australia, but tax is payable on the sale of gold coins to a collector.
I do not see how it is possible to police the collection of tax from the sale of any item between two private individuals, be it legal to have to pay tax or not.
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moxking's Avatar
United States
17900 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2015  10:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A reputable dealer, basically any seller with a sales tax license, is going to keep close accounts on everything they buy and sell as that determines their gross profit. All of the expenses are then deducted from that gross profit to give a net profit, which is the amount that determines their tax liability.

Those same reputable dealers will issue an invoice on any sale. Even if you don't get the invoice, one is produced.

You, as a collector, are in a similar situation, although your net gain is the determining factor for tax liability. All costs of purchase including transportation to and from shows, eating while attending a show, the hotel expenses if they exist, the cost of postage you pay to receive items, or the safety deposit box you pay for are all considered to be part of your expenses in obtaining your collection.

If you sell your collection (or pieces of it) having all of that information will help determine the net gain.

I keep all of my invoices for all purchases and expenses in a 3-ring binder in chronological order. My inventory number for each item in my collection begins with the date (military) such that today, for example, would be 150820.

That inventory number is also written or a tab and is attached to the actual item. I can locate the purchase price (and any expenses in purchasing the item) within a single minute.

In the event you do not intend to sell any of your collection then I very strongly recommend that you advise your executor of the exact nature of your collection and how to read your inventory.

Without doing so, your heirs stand the chance of losing significantly either because they sell too low, or don't know how to determine prices paid and expenses incurred in creating the collection. If you don't keep such a listing and advice your executor on those details, I can assure you that even if the executor is familiar with coins, they will probably throw in the towel on trying to work the numbers.

I've been executor for a number of estates and there is NOTHING that is more time consuming with more government requirements than getting an estate settled. Don't do that to someone.

If you are just trying to scam the government, then I hope you get nailed.
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BStrauss3's Avatar
United States
4592 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2015  11:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are many things that are illegal which are not policed unless it comes to the attention of the appropriate party. If THAT happens, they can bring a lot of pressure to bear.

Many years ago, there was a jewelry store in NYC that was a branch of a NJ company. It came to the attention of the NY tax authorities that an amazing proportion of high end sales were being mailed to NJ and thus not taxable. So the nice people from the enforcement division rolled up one morning and politely asked for all the sales records shipped to New Jersey. Oh, and while you are at it, we would like the records of sales IN New Jersey to NY residents. Hate to have to go back and get a warrant and the have to close you down for a couple weeks while we investigate.

A lot of people were invoiced for taxes that they thought they had escaped on, or use taxes (the equivalent if you buy it out of state and bring it in) that they seem to have forgotten about.

Even with your private party sale, if they roll up on the seller, s/he will give up every name s/he remembers in the hopes of lessening the charges.

The fact of the matter is that the taxes are legally owed.
You may not like them. OK.
The difference between the USA and Greece is that MOST people in the USA do pay their taxes. Think about THAT for a while... and remember that what they finally got Capone for was Tax Evasion.

-----Burton
50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club
Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983)

Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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denco7's Avatar
United States
2543 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2015  12:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add denco7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
HERE is JM Bullion's very informative infographic about PM's and the IRS.
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1325 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2015  12:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add shadz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
well I dont have $1000 to buy, nor worth of face value 90% silver coins, so I really don't need to worry if I sell a roll of silver roosies right?
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Cascade's Avatar
United States
7390 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2015  1:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's a link to info on every states tax sales tax laws on coins & bullion

http://thecoinologist.com/sales-tax...e-breakdown/
Valued Member
United States
245 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2015  9:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TMCD75 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Cash transactions are impossible to track properly. I had a talk with my LCS guy about this issue and he smiled, then told me very few people pay their taxes correctly on precious metals. Why do you think most shops prefer cash? They too want to hide as much profits as possible.

Another issue is that it's unconscionable to think the feds deserve 28% on profits from precious metals! Talk about a greedy system, they deserved to get stiffed!

If you go to a LCS, sell some bullion for under 10k, get paid in cash, you're highly unlikely to ever garner attention from that sale. Remember, the dealer will not want a trail either! I'd have no problem paying a small tax but not 28%. I'm in the 15% tax bracket anyway, I do not have to pay capital gains! I love it!
Rest in Peace
moxking's Avatar
United States
17900 Posts
 Posted 08/20/2015  9:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Since we've devolved into politics:

If you voted then the folks who made the tax laws are the ones you voted for.

If you haven't voted then you have nothing to complain about.

If you intend to vote there is hope.
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